Hi All

Firstly thanks to all those here that spend their valuable time helping and also those that share their stories/experiences.

This obviously pertains to the issuance of a Parking Fee from a private company and as such some input from the team is welcomed It's relatively certain such notices are simple extortion .. opinions are naturally sought

Maybe you should seek clarification on what it says on their little yellow envelope; "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice."

What are they warning you about? and what "offence" (a legal term for criminal activity) are you likely to commit by removing it if you're not the driver?

Clarification on which "little yellow envelope" All hypothetical!

If the Registered Keeper receives a notification from the private company by mail then 'just' maybe a reply from the Registered Keeper will be forthcoming .. until then I think not!

Ah! .. after re-reading your post I think I got the wrong end of the stick :blushes:

Do you mean that the Warning Label suggesting an alleged offence for removal is pivotal in the sense it may very well be an illegal disclaimer?

Cheers

• do not pay

• do not contact them

• ignore their letters, no matter how threatening\

• they will give up and go away

• have a nice Christmas and remember to toast Town and City

Maybe you should seek clarification on what it says on their little yellow envelope; "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice."

 

What are they warning you about? and what "offence" (a legal term for criminal activity) are you likely to commit by removing it if you're not the driver?

It's just talking about theft. Anything you own could have a label slapped on it saying "It is an offence for any person other than the owner to remove this notice". Of course, it's real purpose is to attempt to add some legitimacy to their toy town invoice.

can you 'steal' unsolicited junk mail ? i.e. litter

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 No. 3483

Removal of or interference with a penalty charge notice

 

11.—(1) A penalty charge notice fixed to a vehicle in accordance with regulation 9(a) shall not be removed or interfered with except by or under the authority of—

(a) the owner or person in charge of the vehicle; or

(b) the enforcement authority.

(2) A person contravening paragraph (1) shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

Obviously my skills at digging for info are limited but I happend across Hull CPE Guidance notes.

On Page two and I qoute:

If you decide to do nothing: Then after 56 days of issuing the PCN, under national legislation you are liable for the payment of the charge, even if you are innocent.

FFF , why are posting information relevant only to real council issued PCNs in a thread about a PPC invoice ? those regs have nothing to do with it.

I apologise and it seems you are correct

Someone might have said that Local Council PCN's were different from Private Company PCN's. I only just found the relevant info

How would this play out though for Councils sub-contracting out to Private Companies as thier agents?

It will have a name that can be abbreviated to PCN, so Penalty Charge Notice, Parking Charge Notice etc. The reason for this is that there IS a provision within the Road Traffic Act for an instrument called a ‘Penalty Charge Notice’. This provision in the Road Traffic Act applies ONLY to those acting on behalf of the local authority

FFF you are falling into the trap that the PPCs want you to fall at; i.e. you are comparing a real council PCN with a PPC car parking INVOICE.

The first is a legal penalty which can be upheld by a court, the 2nd is simply a parking invoice from a company to the driver for using a car park. They dress them up to look the same so that many people actually think they are the same and pay it with no questions asked!

Do not fall for this!

Do not pay

Do not write to them

Do not telephone them

How would this play out though for Councils sub-contracting out to Private Companies as thier agents?

These would still be valid PCNs because they are issued on behalf of the council. They would clearly show the council who is issing it, and refer to the legal TMA that is being applied.

Ok folks information fully digested .. thanks

I just wanted to be fully prepared in the highly unlikely event ignoring the PPC led to civil action.

can you 'steal' unsolicited junk mail ? i.e. litter

Good question.

It's all hypothetical though because no body on earth will ever be prosecuted for stealing a bit of non-PCN/FPN paper on a car!

Town and City are stupid enough to call them penalties anyway:

General - Current vacancies

 

Car Park Attendant / Marshall

 

To provide car park management on day-to-day basis by patrolling car park and issuing civil penalties using hand-held computers. Carry-out preventative maintenance on machines and refill with tickets, as required. Keep car park clean and tidy in compliance with H&S regulations. Liaise with contractors relating to cash collection and audit tickets from machines.

 

You must be able to work using your own initiative and be able to communicate with clients and general public in an effective and courteous manner. The ability to adhere to client instructions and maintain a good relationship is a pre-requisite for all vacancies within Town & City Parking Ltd.

Update ...

Town & City never attempted to make contact.

Thanks to all for the helpful advice

Town & City Parking made contact by post

It appears they [Town & City] are not adhering to the BPA Code of Practise which is a requirement to part of the BPA Approved Operator Scheme (AOS). List of BPA AOS members

BPA are an Accredited Trade Association (ATA) which is a requirement defined by the DVLA in order to access electronically DVLA keepers' details.

All BPA members who are involved in car parking enforcement on private land must become a member of the BPA’s Approved Operator Scheme.The primary focus of the scheme is to ensure that all operators wishing to electronically access the DVLA’s vehicle keepers’ details database are a regulated member of an Accredited Trade Association (ATA).

Now for the specific details.

As detailed in the BPA Code of Practise section (67) Part A

NOTICE TO OWNER

 

"A Notice to Owner may be sent to the registered keeper at the address provided by the DVLA, not less than 28 days after the Parking Ticket was issued.This Notice to Owner must state the following:"

 

* That a Parking Ticket was fixed to the vehicle and has not been paid;

* That the opportunity to pay a discounted amount has been lost;

* That the outstanding amount should be paid, or a challenge received, within 28 days or further action may be taken;

* The details of the alleged contravention:

* The location, date and time;

* The vehicle’s registration mark, make and (optionally) colour;

* The description of the alleged contravention;

* The amount of the charge to be paid.

* Details of how to pay;

* Details of how to dispute;

* What will happen next if no payment or a parking ticket is challenged

 

When serving a Notice to Owner, Operators must include a leaflet advising motorists of the ‘reasonable cause’ for the request and the complaints procedure by which keepers can notify the Information Commissioner and DVLA if they believe their data has been used inappropriately.This should also include the disputes resolution procedure if the ticket is challenged.

Any comment from the legal eagles on the forum?

Should I challenge this on principle?

See attached original NOTICE TO OWNER

*INVOICE REMOVED*

complain to BPA - who will fob you off but complaints need to registered to prove they don't action them. then the DVLA. then your MP. and Trading Standards as not following a trade code of practice is against The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 No.

Will doing so not just help tighten their Voluntary Code of Practise on the back on my investigation (thanks to this site).

I'd like to throw a spanner in the works just for the fun of it but by the same token I'm happy if they continue to make the same mistakes leaving loopholes which we may utilise. Catch my drift

WHAT CAN I DO IF I HAVE A COMPLAINT AGAINST AN ORGANISATION I BELIEVE TO BE A MEMBER OF THE BPA?

Your complaint will be logged in-house and if there is a breach in the BPA’s Code of Practice, the company will be contacted either by phone or in person. We cannot enter into individual correspondence or act on your behalf but each letter or email we receive is taken seriously and any issue of non-compliance is investigated.

AOS membership is required for the electronic links to the DVLA. DVLA insist the CoP is enforced by ATAs (of which the BPA is one) to keep their ATA status. So the BPA insist on members signing up the CoP - because of the DVLA strictures mentioned already. You either sign up or you are not a member. Not voluntary CoP, voluntary membership of the BPA.

Ok understood Would it not be best to contact the DVLA in the first instance?

I base this on the fact some random private company can obtain the registered keepers details (personal information) .. something the average Joe is not privy to.

I really object to private companies having access to personal information without due process. I feel I have recourse with quasi Government Organisations al la DVLA but a pointless excercise tackling private entities such as BPA or their co-horts.

If I choose to tackle the DVLA to whom would I address?

Thanks

as per one of my usual links FAQs - PPCs - fighting back. The forces are aligned here is the other one http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/164651-problems-ppcs-face.html?highlight=problems+ppc+face

ok dokey

Vehicles Fee Paying Enquiry Section

DVLA

Swansea

SA99 1AJ

That FAQ is out of date as the BPA CoP has changed insomuch as it no longer states

"2. Keeper/driver liability

2.1 Changes to Code of Practice - Part 2 Parking Tickets

The paragraph 36) C) – xviii (Parking Ticket Issue - page 10) will be amended to read:

“What will happen next if no payment or challenge is received within the time(s) allowed and any further charges that may be accrued, e.g. “the name and address of the registered keeper of the vehicle will be requested from the DVLA and a request will be sent to the keeper asking for the name and address of the driver at the time the charge was incurred””.

2.2 The paragraph 67) A) (Enforcement Action on outstanding parking tickets – Notice to Owner - page 13); this “letter to the owner” should make no reference to asking for payment but should specifically point out the details of the contravention and request that the owner furnish the details of the driver at the time the charge was incurred.

The question now is did Town & City get the Registered Keepers details by electronic access or manually.

I don't think I can make a complaint unless I know so will browse around to see if there is a method to obtain that info from the DVLA.

there is see FAQs - PPCs - fighting back. The forces are aligned

Sorry lamma you've been most helpful and patient but I'm still finding it difficult to navigate the info.

It's really a point of principle for me that Private Companies may obtain my personal private details without any evidence yet joe public does not have the same rights.

Thanks again