Thread: HELP Been Suspected Of Benefit Fraud

Hi, I was wondering if you could help me as I am in a sticky situation.

On 26th Aug My wife had an interview under caution for benefit fraud because of selling thinks over the internet. We were claiming income support in my wifes name but it is me (the husband) that has been selling. They interviewed my wife on her own as I wasn't allowed to attend because I wasnt the name on the benefit but my wife was claiming for me.
It all started in 2004 when we had a nasty neighbour that was harrassing us, not violance just giving us an hard time, she has taken photos of my young child whilst naked, called us names and kept on making stories up and reporting us to the police for no reasons. This was getting too much for me and went into depression, to over come the depression I just cleared off into town and kept on buying games in order to play as I got too scared due to the depression of going outside, ok I went into town but I just hung out in town on my own for no apparant reason but once I came home that was it I was stuck indoors. I suffer from insomnia so I just kept on buying the games to play til all hours, then it turned into an hobby to keep my mind occupied, I asked the tax office how much that I could earn and they said £5500 per year so I was keeping to that as they said to just inform the benefits agency, I did but I found out in 2008 that it had not been recorded, so I cant proove a thing now that I told them. The tax office explained that I could earn £5500 as my personal allowance so I kept to that, maybe I slightly come over one year but nothing major. The majority years I kept under the limit. The benefits agency now think that it is a business when its not but since then we have signed off and claimed that it is a business as I thought it would be a challenge for me and would help my depression, not to mention that i can still play the games. I am quite happy to sort of meet half way even though I still think it is wrong and blown out of proportion but we have not heard a think for nearly 3 month from the investigation. Also the nasty neigbour is the one that reprorted us before she moved, she is doing benefit fraud herself, so reported her and we are just waiting with that. I didnt know that I had to properly declare it but I did inform people but there is no recollection.
I was really hoping that I could get as much advice as possible from you good people. I want to know:

Is it possible for them to say that I am doing benefit fraud without even speaking to me and have only spoke to my wife who has nothing to do with it as they havent let the culprit (me) speak to them?

There is a total of £3000 in both our bank accounts with £2000 being savings from over 5 years ago as we were saving up for our first ever family holiday which they are going to treat as money from a business?

How do they define what games are for mostly personal use or business use. I do have a collection of 500 games which are not for sale but may decide to sell a few??

How can I proove to them that I purchased the games in the "only a possible" intentions of reselling, which are completly personal, which I have made and lost profit??

How will they know that I for example paid £10 for a game and sold for £8, they will treat this has £8 made and not £2 lost??

The money that we saved up ourselfs have nothing to do with all of this. I dont drink, dont do drugs, dont smoke, I dont have skytv I dont even have a mobile phone, I cant drive, never been on holiday, my clothes are 2nd hand mostly, I even eat only one meal a day due to my depression just to save money and it has taken us 5 years to get £3000 to go and spend a month or so visiting my cousin in new zealand, this is just to let you know where I got the £3000 from.

How long does an investigation take and is it a good or bad think that it is taking so long??

Please can you give me advice as we are very stuck

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Thanks martin for your reply, also I realised I placed the post in the wrong place afterward.

Anyway, yes Ive got nothing to hide but they are obviously going to say I am guilty because Ive been looking through the stuff and is quite easily mistaken as a business and I can proove the majority of the games bought where sold at least 3 months after purchase, most being sold after a year, also most are still here like I say I am a collector, but the one good thing that i am hoping for is that after me looking at my bank statements more money has gone out than in, ive got proof of where I got my 2nd hand clothes from, ive got proof of some of them items being a couple of other people as I did the odd favours, my lifestyle is probably slightly below average, even simple things like tvs I own, main tv is an old fashioned 10 year old thing and I play the games on a portable which is 15 years old these are just some examples of what i can proove. Now I am not claiming any benifits apart from tax credits and child tax which I only get £64pw and the sales are poor. I am more baffled as how they can proove that I am buying on the intent to resell. For the past few years we have really saved up doing without stuff, living on next to nothing in order to have our first family holiday, ive only been abroad once in my lifetime to america in september 2004 to visit a friend as his uncle died in the twin towers so we paid our respects etc and that was me going there alone without the wife and child, so I am hoping that nothing affects our £3000 that we have saved up.
I understand that they need proof and to me there is no complete solid evidence apart from them totting up the monies in and outs. I know I am inocent but these investigators will find some excuse to say that I was a business.
In my lifetime If always been honest even as a terrible teen, I never got in trouble, no police etc, I am pretty much known as a goody-goody and wouldnt dream of doing anything wrong, but this is a thing that I never knew, I did question it but stupid me never followed it up further. Even now that I am claiming tax credits we enquired about more money as the sales wasn't coming in and they said that because it will go up come christmas they will backdate and sort out all that at a later date but for now stay at £64. I know some of this info might be irrelavant to you like Ive gone on and on but yes I am worried even though I can proof my innocence but there will be something there that they will consider to be classed as self employement and quite happy to sort of meet half way but still claim not guilty even though I still feel it is all wrong as a sign of good will, like you say with the senior section supervisor, I will look into this, thank-you ever so much for the advice

Hi Martin, just an update and to see what you think.

It is now 5 months and still not heard a thing and still in the same position. I telephoned the fraud investigators demanding (in a nice way) to tell me whats going on, whats happening etc and they replied by saying that we are not a priority and are still looking at it, they did say though that there are quite a lot of items sold months after purchase and they might just put it down to an hobby seller so thats a good thing I suppose but its only a possibility. I was saying to my wife that they are struggling because there isnt any fancy holidays or expensive items on my bank statements which I bet they were expecting to see, which there hasnt been one anyway. Since the last post we have qualified for full council tax and housing benefit and I am doing more now with being classed as self employed since august so if we qualify now then there is hope there.

Is there any advice that you can give to end the whole thing and what is the timesacale that they can take for investigations as I want to just move on and get on with things and maybe progress with selling a lot more items. Also I was hoping to either start my driving lessons or have our first holiday but I feel I cant as I might need money if things go bad. I just dont know what to do nowbut I cant just sit here waiting.

Hi DCA-King, they interviewed my wife because she was the name on the benifits and not me hence why they were only allowed to speak to her and not me, We have been saving since 2003 and we have both knuckled down and done without any new items, we dont go out drinking, I am tea total now, we cant drive, we have never been on holiday etc, so this is where the money has come from, it has taken us roughly 5 years, we were trying to get to about £5000 but was going up very slowly. This was meant to be either to do driving lessons, get a car etc, have a special 1st holiday, and other ideas like a possible job abroad and move away, but this is not really important what the money is for, its the fact that I have £3000 saved over 5 years.

I was buying, playing then selling constantly, the profit-loss was roughly the same as the purchase price, some I gained a couple of quid, others I lost a couple of quid, over 12 months. I sorted all this out with the benefits agency and they said if I wasnt making loads then it is ok but they had to be notified, which I did and it would be treated as an hobby seller with no intentions of making money, just buying, playing, selling, I sorted out with tax office and they said the simular thing but on the safe side keep receipts and each time they looked I was actually down. Now I have probably made a lot more in 1 week as I did in 1 year, still low profit but I am getting the hang of it and with my playing experience of the game I know roughly what to look for and have done research etc.

We were being arrassed by a nasty neighbour, she has gone now and we are trying to move on but cant with this flippin thing. I was suffering from depression so this game thing was actually helping me, I dont drink because I got that bad that I was getting suicidal thoughts, and it was like I had a screw loose. I have been off depression tablets for 2 months now and starting to pick myself back up, I dont know what else to explain to you as I seem to be repeating myself, I just cant get anything out of anyone.

Thank-you, I thought the same scenario has you gave with the cars thing, I know a few people who buy and repair then sell. Yes I did lock myself in my own world and to escape I walked into town and just bought games, been depressed etc, now I am slowly getting a hold on things, but I do still have the odd sudden mood change but I think thats more frustration. Thank-you for your advise and I will happily take everything that you have said and will sort out a complaint and get it to them asap. We got forced into this self employment stuff because of this but in reality I am ending up enjoying it, although its not what I want in life but for now its actually quite good and because I am willing to take the challenge of this it is actually keeping my mind occupied. But at the back of my mind its this ongoing thing that I want to end and move on. I only live in a council flat so we dont have any assets etc. Also I know quite a lot of people living near me who are intentional mistreating the system but I am not really one to complain as its their neck not mine but it seems that the benefits agency like to pick on the wrong people and not aiming for the intentional ones. Anyway like I say I will no doubt be filing a complaint to shake them up, thanks for you advice

household income is what they take into account, your allowed something like £10.00 per week before they deduct some from your benefit. tax allowance and amount DWP take into account when deciding your benefit award are two differant things. the fact to them is the income was not declared so they will take a dim view of it.

gOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE BENEFITS PEOPLE SO YOU TRY TO KEEP YOUR HEAD ABOVE WATER BY SELLING YOUR STUFF WHAT IS SO WRONG IN THAT AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT MAKING A LONG TERM BUSSINESS OUT OF IT WHAT THE HARM

Hi, I have read your posts with interest.

The investigation must be frustrating for you but I'm afraid these things do take time. I know of several beenfit investigations which have taken in excess of 6 months to complete and nearly one year before a decision is made.

There are a couple of important things to remember. Firstly, regardless of the amount of hours that you put into a "business" or the amount of money you make, it still has to be declared.

s111&s112 Social Security Adminstration Act 1992 (as amended) impose a duty to declare a change of circumstances. It is a criminal offence to make false statements.

I know of someone who was recently prosecuted for receiving £110 overpayment in JSA. The moral of the story is that it's the conduct that's in issue not the amount of money involved.

It seems to me that if you've been co-operative with the investigators, and there is not a great deal of overpayment, you could be entitled to a caution or adminstrative penalty (ie repay overpayment plus 30% "fine"). If the overpayment is sizeable eg over £1,500 and/or there is significant dishonesty involved there is a good chance of prosecution.

You might have a defence to any proceedings brought against you. For example, if you could show you did not make a false statement or did not act dishonestly. If you're prosecuted it would be a good idea to instruct a lawyer. You might get legal aid depending on your financial circumstances.

If you feel there is some important information to tell the investigators you or a lawyer should write to them. Personally I would send them a letter and put pressure on them, if there is a case against you, to consider a caution of admin Pen.

Remember that because this is a criminal invetsigation that the Codes of Practice (Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984) apply to interviews and conduct of the investigation and the Code for Crown Prosecutors (www.cps.gov.uk) applies to any decision about case disposal. Each investigation team also has its own policy on disposal etc but broadly the policy follows the Code for CP's.

I hope this helps. Good luck and let me know if you need anything else.

Al.

Hi everyone, Just an update

About a month ago I rang the investigators demanding that I needed to see them to sort all this out once and for all or just a chat to see if things can be speeded up, they put me through to this women who we have never seen before, she said "ok come down for a informal chat" which was last week. When we went she had all info in front of her and just asked random questions and with the answers that we gave her she had a look at the bank statements, sales, what money is spent on etc and she could see that we had no intentions in becoming a business, she really listened to our lifestyle and told us she had already looked at our medical history, police records and tax office records and saw that there was enough information to back what we were trying to say to the investigators in the first place, I got mixed up with the personal allowance with the tax office and what people are generally allowed to sell (personal items) so she saw that we made a mistake but not intentionally. She decided to scrap the whole thing as the money that we actually made was no were near, and that there have not been any major purchases like holidays, cars etc and that from august 2008 we have made things right by making sure all is good with inland revenue, council tax, rent, business planning permission etc.

So basically we have received a massive slap on the wrist and given the final verdict of "not guilty" (if you can put it like this) as they couldnt find concrete evidence or if they did it wasnt worth their while to take things further and our personal circumstances.

Ive really looked into the business side recently and got myself a supplier, we are finally looking into having our first holiday since we got married 10 years ago, we have both been to doctors to check us out medical wise, my wife is still on depression tablets, and like I have said before Ive refused them as I dont like the idea but I still have my spots on my body due to my nervous system and I am slowly getting my confidence back. We have got help and advice from the council and police about our former nasty neighbour and they have given her a warning. We have only seen her once in town in 6 months, so long as it stays like that then we are ok. I really want to get my own back for doing this to us but decided to let it all go as there is no point making trouble, its hard letting her get away with her benefit fraud after what she has put us through but I have to let it lie and move on as our problem is sorted.

I thank all of you that has replied and I took all your advice on board that gave me ideas on what to do and who to contact and it made me build my confidence up to start demanding and fighting back. Its really been an hard 6 months and I didn't think that I would get through it all. I owe you a drink so if ever you are in the Blackburn area let me know, Now I have experienced this for myself I will try and pop on to see if I can help others. All the best and take care, Antony

Glad to hear that things are going so much better for you. The lesson to be learnt from all this is to keep every bit of paper - even if you think you may not need it. If you are not sure about declaring anything then write and ask and keep copies of the letters -and - most council officials are complete b******s!! Good Luck.

For the original poster, I really hope things work out for you. Regardless of how the law looks at it, really seems that you haven't intentionally done anything wrong and have been trying to keep yourself occupied. I hope that the investigator recognises this and it is within the parameters of the law.

Can I just say, like Erika (sorry to drag you into this) I am really disappointed with the things being said about "these benefit people" who evidently have something wrong with them, and employees of the government who are "b*****ds". I am an employee of the DWP and I don't mind saying so. I have never intentionally tried to make someone's life difficult and I can't be rude to people or tell them whatever I like because the calls I answer and make are all recorded and a random percentage are checked. Sometimes I have to apply the law in a way people don't like but that isn't myself or my colleagues being vindictive, it is just the law that we must apply and cannot break. I know that some people have a genuinely bad experience and I know that sometimes DWP employees are rude and unhelpful but I do mean sometimes. We don't all sit around rubbing our hands in glee when someone fails a medical or benefits aren't payable or we can't pay someone a crisis loan.

Sorry for hijacking this post but I really felt I had to say that. Erika has previously explained it a lot more eloquently than I.

I was actually referring to council officials not employees of the DWP - but I clearly touched a raw nerve with you there. I still stand by the fact that every council official I have ever had any dealings with over the last three years (b eing investigated for alleged benefit fraud - nothing found so far!!) has behaved abominably, They have been deliberately unhelpful, rude and even aggressive.

I understand to whom you are referring. I am sorry if you have had repeatedly bad experiences. No one should be treated badly by a government employee. It is entirely your right to stand by your opinion. I was also referring to a previous post, not only yours. I am not sure what the inference is when you say "clearly touched a raw nerve". I don't really have anything else to say, except to echo what has been said on a previous post, being that there are people who come on here who are government employees who are trying to provide advice to help here.

To go back to the original poster, I hope you will keep us updated on what happens!

Originally Posted by Messydesk

I was actually referring to council officials not employees of the DWP - but I clearly touched a raw nerve with you there. I still stand by the fact that every council official I have ever had any dealings with over the last three years (b eing investigated for alleged benefit fraud - nothing found so far!!) has behaved abominably, They have been deliberately unhelpful, rude and even aggressive.

Just out of interest - were they Local Authority Officials or Private contractors?