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Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
Hi,
I was hoping I could get some advice on the above. Today I have received a summons for the 2nd of December in relation to not providing information to a Notice of Intended Prosecution/S.172 for a red traffic light offence.
I just did not receive this NIP at the time of their stated issue, it is not something I would ignore. So my question is two fold.
What can I do? Is non receipt an adequate defence. Government bodies always seem to argue proof of postage is not proof of receipt. I would have thought they would have sent reminders but it appears not. Secondly what precedents are there for arguing the red traffic light contravention. I have no memory of it, though the evidence attached shows that the vehicle had just crossed the junction when the light went red. I am not in the habbit of jumping red lights. I would have assumed that the reason I didn't pull up was that it was safer to go through the junction than stop.
- The date of the red light offence was 07/05/08
- The date they say the NIP/S.172 was served was the 14/05/08 and I am being charged with not providing information between the 14/05/08 and 12/06/08.
- The date that the information was laid before the court was the 18/11/08. With a witness statment from a police cleric on the 10/10/08
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
The Notice of Intended Prosecution will be deemed served if it was properly issued whether it was not delivered, sent to a former address, the dog ate it, you binned it or whatever.
Having failed to respond you are now facing an offence under section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 for failing to name the driver. This means that the prosecution no longer has to prove the original offence but merely that you failed to respond. As registered keeper you can expect to receive three points on your licence for this and a fine set at a punitive level (£400-£600 not uncommon, £1,000 possible) as failing to disclose the driver is, the magistrates believe, a method some drivers erroneously use to attempt to avoid the consequences of the original offence.
The difficulty now is to get you back from the Section 172 breach with its high penalty - and which is relatively simple to prove for the CPSto the original offence which might be a Fixed Penalty Notice with the usual £60 fine and three points or a summons to appear on the original offence which may be challenged or mitigated in court.
You need to recognise the difficulty you are in and to present a front which might cast doubt in the mind of the CPS, and possibly the magistrates, that justice would be best served by their bringing the case under Section 172, that this was a genuine error and you are now prepared to name the driver or admit/defend on the original offence.
It may be prudent to obtain the services of a solicitor at this stage.
Opinions are offered in good faith based upon personal experience and research. Before making any irreversible decisions the opinion of a qualified, registered and insured legal professional should be sought.
If my advice or information has assisted you in any way - please click my scales.
thanks
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Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
service is rebuttable - Interpretation Act - unless send recorded delivery (which it won't have been). Are they charging for both offenses - red light AND S172 ?
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
service is rebuttable - Interpretation Act - unless send recorded delivery (which it won't have been).
which is why I said ask for proof of postage.
Are they charging for both offenses - red light AND S172 ?
They cannot prosecute for red light offence because they do not know who the driver was - all they can do is prosecute for non complience with information request.
Opinions are offered in good faith based upon personal experience and research. Before making any irreversible decisions the opinion of a qualified, registered and insured legal professional should be sought.
If my advice or information has assisted you in any way - please click my scales.
thanks
[COLOR=red]Nat West Charges £1056 [B]WON[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS Charges £3600 [B]WON[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS Unenforceable Loan £18500 [B]Pending[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS PPI on loan above [B]Pending[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=red]MBNA Credit Card [B]CCA & SAR Sent[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]Co-op Credit Card [B]CCA Sent[/B][/COLOR]
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
a hatton - that is a new one on me - whats that? (I of course being nieve expect the cps to follow the law --- SILLY ME!!!)
Opinions are offered in good faith based upon personal experience and research. Before making any irreversible decisions the opinion of a qualified, registered and insured legal professional should be sought.
If my advice or information has assisted you in any way - please click my scales.
thanks
[COLOR=red]Nat West Charges £1056 [B]WON[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS Charges £3600 [B]WON[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS Unenforceable Loan £18500 [B]Pending[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS PPI on loan above [B]Pending[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=red]MBNA Credit Card [B]CCA & SAR Sent[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]Co-op Credit Card [B]CCA Sent[/B][/COLOR]
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
Thanks for that - Interesting how they both used his declaration to prosecute him, and then used his assertion that they couldnt prosecute him as he was not under caution, to suggest he had not complied with the s172 notice.
Talk about having your cake and eating it.
Thankfully the judge said no
Opinions are offered in good faith based upon personal experience and research. Before making any irreversible decisions the opinion of a qualified, registered and insured legal professional should be sought.
If my advice or information has assisted you in any way - please click my scales.
thanks
[COLOR=red]Nat West Charges £1056 [B]WON[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS Charges £3600 [B]WON[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS Unenforceable Loan £18500 [B]Pending[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS PPI on loan above [B]Pending[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=red]MBNA Credit Card [B]CCA & SAR Sent[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]Co-op Credit Card [B]CCA Sent[/B][/COLOR]
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
Originally Posted by rsl808
Hi,
I was hoping I could get some advice on the above. Today I have received a summons for the 2nd of December in relation to not providing information to a Notice of Intended Prosecution/S.172 for a red traffic light offence.
I just did not receive this NIP at the time of their stated issue, it is not something I would ignore. So my question is two fold.
What can I do? Is non receipt an adequate defence. Government bodies always seem to argue proof of postage is not proof of receipt. I would have thought they would have sent reminders but it appears not. Secondly what precedents are there for arguing the red traffic light contravention. I have no memory of it, though the evidence attached shows that the vehicle had just crossed the junction when the light went red. I am not in the habbit of jumping red lights. I would have assumed that the reason I didn't pull up was that it was safer to go through the junction than stop.
- The date of the red light offence was 07/05/08
- The date they say the NIP/S.172 was served was the 14/05/08 and I am being charged with not providing information between the 14/05/08 and 12/06/08.
- The date that the information was laid before the court was the 18/11/08. With a witness statment from a police cleric on the 10/10/08
Many Thanks in Advance
1) Is the address on your V5 (registration document) correct? The Police will send the NIP/S.172 to that address.
2) The NIP is deemed served by first class post 2 days after posting (Interpretation Act). However, such service is rebuttable. IOW, if the magistrates accept that you are a credible witness that no NIP/S.172 was received.
You can provide information to the Court of the high number of items lost by Royal Mail (do a web search) and that the Police are, to a certain extent authors of their own misfortune; in that they could guarantee service by using recorded or registered delivery but choose instead to use first class post - with all its attendant risks.
3) With the summons bundle, you should have received a copy of the NIP. What is the date on this? Very often, Police assume that date of posting is date of service - not so. If they have stated this is a statement, you can prove that 'fact' as untrue and thus call into question the veracity and accuracy of the entire statement.
4) The law specifically gives the recipient of a written S/172 request 28 days in which to respond. Even if they are correct as to the date of service, no offence can be committed until 28 days after that.
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
I understand the interpretation act but I find it interesting that the Road traffic act specifically states that a notice shall be deemed to have been served if it was sent by recorded delivery or registered post.
(Section (1)(2))
I would ask for proof of postage and quote this - if the police have no proof of postage then according the Road Traffic Act it has not been served.
Opinions are offered in good faith based upon personal experience and research. Before making any irreversible decisions the opinion of a qualified, registered and insured legal professional should be sought.
If my advice or information has assisted you in any way - please click my scales.
thanks
[COLOR=red]Nat West Charges £1056 [B]WON[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS Charges £3600 [B]WON[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS Unenforceable Loan £18500 [B]Pending[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]RBS PPI on loan above [B]Pending[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=red]MBNA Credit Card [B]CCA & SAR Sent[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]Co-op Credit Card [B]CCA Sent[/B][/COLOR]
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
not - just not deemed to be served via recorded/registered - which is deemed served even if returned to sender by the post office !. service by normal post can be rebutted however.
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
Originally Posted by patdavies
1) Is the address on your V5 (registration document) correct? The Police will send the NIP/S.172 to that address.
All address information is correct
Originally Posted by patdavies
3) With the summons bundle, you should have received a copy of the NIP. What is the date on this? Very often, Police assume that date of posting is date of service - not so. If they have stated this is a statement, you can prove that 'fact' as untrue and thus call into question the veracity and accuracy of the entire statement.
4) The law specifically gives the recipient of a written S/172 request 28 days in which to respond. Even if they are correct as to the date of service, no offence can be committed until 28 days after that.
The copy of the NIP has the date 14/05/08 which forms part of the statement, if this is what was meant.
Re: Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
Originally Posted by rsl808
The copy of the NIP has the date 14/05/08 which forms part of the statement, if this is what was meant.
If the NIP is dated 14/May/2008, then it is presumed served on 16/May/2008 - 2 business days are allowed for First Class post.
The RTA 1988 gives you 28 days from the date that the NIP is served in which to respond - until then, you commit no offence. So no S/172 offence is possible before 14th/Jun/2008
The date they say the NIP/S.172 was served was the 14/05/08 and I am being charged with not providing information between the 14/05/08 and 12/06/08.
The NIP - if served by first class post - cannot possibly have been served on the same date as it was issued.
Help Needed - Summons - NIP/S.172 and Red Light Offence
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Originally Posted by rsl808
