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PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Hi,
Today I have unfortunately received a pcn from Camden Council
I had driven to London to drop some furniture there, as I have moved into a new house. I had taken the wrong turn, turned on my hazards and made a 'u-turn' (as shown in the pics).
I don't remember seeing any signs there, however I will try and take a look soon.
Anyway, I have received a £60 fine for it
(To be honest, I cannot afford this, as I am student)
Quite pathetic in my opinion...
So, is there anything wrong with the PCN or am I going to have to pay it.
More info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
* I cannot see the pictures online at the site it advises me to go to
* The turn was at 20:17 and 57 secs ---> 20:18 & 11seconds. PCN says the turn was at 20:17...anything here? I can see the car still turning at 20:18
* There was no oncoming traffic - they were waiting at red lights
* I believe I turned my hazards on (not sure if this makes a difference)
* It is not my car(parents)
* First time driving in London
* £60 is ridiculous for a u-turn! I cannot afford this.
* I genuinely did not notice any signs, I will have to check
What does this have to do with Camden Council anyway? I think I forgot to lift the seat when I went to the toilet, should I expect a fine for this too?
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Hey, think yourself lucky they are only going after you for the U-turn sox123, coz in picture 3 it very much looks like your wheels have gone into the bus lane, so the money grabbers have missed an opportunity to do you for a bus lane infringement also!
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
there is a no U-turn sign in front of where you turned you but can't see one in the street in which you turned so what signs could you have beed disobeying ? ? go and take lots of pictures. as a point of interest I believe that of reverse gear is used (i,e a three point turn) it can not be classed as a u-turn. don't know if that happened in your case.
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Originally Posted by lamma
there is a no U-turn sign in front of where you turned you but can't see one in the street in which you turned so what signs could you have beed disobeying ? ? go and take lots of pictures. as a point of interest I believe that of reverse gear is used (i,e a three point turn) it can not be classed as a u-turn. don't know if that happened in your case.
There may be a sign before when entering the street I turned around on?
I am not entirely sure...?
I will check
----------
I actually did a three point turn...tried to do a u-turn but didnt make it...
I will take a look at the area and take photos asap (i am not in London at the moment)
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Originally Posted by sox123
Ting, doesn't:
"We may disregard any representations received after the expiry of the 28 day period"
cover Point 2 in your post(on the other thread)?
No. I'll explain by asking you a question. What do you understand the deadline for representations to be? (You can't get it right because, as I said they haven't told you - but try anyway) - and explain how you calculate it would help.
-
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Originally Posted by Ting
No. I'll explain by asking you a question. What do you understand the deadline for representations to be? (You can't get it right because, as I said they haven't told you - but try anyway) - and explain how you calculate it would help.
-
ok, from reading the letter, I would understand the deadline for representations to be 28 days from the date of the notice ( 12/11/08)
the 28 day period "beginning with the date of this notice"
they keep referring to a 28 day period which, from reading the letter, I would believe to be a 28 day period "beginning with the date of this notice"
thats how I interpreted the letter....??
I'm actually pretty sure I did a 3 point turn, so I will try and get the video
thanks both of you
------------------
looks like i have 3(/4) avenues to explore
1) 3 point turn, not u-turn
2) are there any signs there? not previously, but council may have rectified this
3) tings arguments for the pcn being invalid
[4) the time issue]??
hopefully I'll be able to appeal on one of the above
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Originally Posted by lamma
go see the video then and get a copy.
will do...although i'm not sure how I will do this. ill call the number tomorrow
Im guessing I wouldnt be allowed to perform a 3 point turn on the street either but the fact that they have accused me of a u-turn (not a 3 point turn) should be enough???
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Yes that is indeed what they say and yes, they only make reference to that 28 day period.
For reps the period is different. 28 days beginning with the date of service. Quite simply,they are required to tell you that - they haven't. Hence it fails to comply with the very law it quotes at the head of the pcn.
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
southampton row was the pilot site [problem]den chose for the 'u-turns caught on camera'. look for this document "Interim Parking and Enforcement Plan Part of Camden’s Local Implementation Plan, the borough’s transport strategy 2005/11"
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Originally Posted by Ting
Yes that is indeed what they say and yes, they only make reference to that 28 day period.
For reps the period is different. 28 days beginning with the date of service. Quite simply,they are required to tell you that - they haven't. Hence it fails to comply with the very law it quotes at the head of the pcn.
Ting, ok I see now
Do I only actually have 28 days from the date of service(contravention??). ..if thats true then its very misleading.
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Originally Posted by sox123
Ting, ok I see now
Do I only actually have 28 days from the date of service(contravention??). ..if thats true then its very misleading.
I assume this is in the rta or llaa?
Noooooooo!
Nothing to do with date of contravention. Date of service is the date the pcn was served on you - the date you received it. That was obviously 13th so they are effectively nicking a day from you. Clearly prejudices you.
I will link the statute when I find time if you want. (LLA&TFL Act 2003)
-
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
ok
from the lla&tfl act 2003
"
(8) A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a) state—
(i) the grounds on which the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
(ii) the amount of the penalty charge which is payable;
(iii) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
(iv) that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;
(v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
(vi) the amount of the increased charge;
(vii) the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent; and
(viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to this Act; and (b) specify the form in which any such representations are to be made."
Is this the point I need to make in my representations to them?
also, does anyone know which box to tick on the back of the letter?
a)was not the owner
b) contravention did not take place
c) vehicle taken by another person
d)vehicle hire firm
e)penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case
Re: PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
Originally Posted by sox123
ok
from the lla&tfl act 2003
"
(8) A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a) state—
(viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to this Act; and (b) specify the form in which any such representations are to be made."
Is this the point I need to make in my representations to them?
The wording hasn't changed since the issue of sox123's PCN, so I will also make a representation based on the contravention of the LLA & TFL Act 2003, specifically sched 1, para 1, sub-para 3.
Box E reads 'The Penalty Charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.' - I presume this is the box to be ticked, as I am arguing the PCN itself if invalid, thus no charge should be levied.
If anyone could please advise on the exact wording to use I would be very appreciative.
PCN (Camden Council) U-turn £60 Fine [scan inside]
from Camden Council
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Originally Posted by lamma
