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I received a parking ticket whilst loading goods from a storage facility into my van.The van had a sign in the window stating that I was loading and a phone number just in case I was causing an obstruction,as I was across a dropped kerb that led into a private loading bay(full).
When I saw the ticket on my van I asked the traffic warden why it had been given.He said he did not know and that it had not been put there by him.He called to his superior,who arrived by van and called the vehicle removal team to cancel any intended action.He said the ticket had been put there by a passing moped warden and that it was obvious to him that I had been loading and,in fact,was still in the process.He told me to appeal the ticket and that it would be canceled.
On appeal I was told that the ticket could not be canceled unless I provided proof of loading,i.e. a delivery note or some other record.As the goods were owned by me,being loaded by me and the van was mine I had no such record.
I stated as much and in my second appeal was told that as I had no proof,the penalty would stand.In their reply they also stated that the vehicle had been observed for 5mins,during which no loading was seen to take place.In actual fact, the times on the ticket are between 12:19 and 12:21,making 2mins,barely time to lock the doors and move away from the vehicle.
Of course,I wish I had got the number of the senior warden but didn't.
What should be my next plan of action?
you do not need 'proof' as the council is insisting (quite wrongly). refer the council to their own staff that you spoke to. take it to the adjudicator when the council refuses to relent. and post pictures of the pcn (both sides) - suitably washed of your personal details
I do not have a copy of the pcn,only a photocopy as the pcn was kept,along with the letter on my second appeal.As I understand it a new pcn is to be issued.
I also referred them to the senior warden in my first appeal but there has been no mention of this.
One other thing,the picture they took of my van clearly shows that I am facing the wrong way in a one way street,thereby allowing access to the side door.Do you think it is worth mentioning this,as it is unlikely someone parking would have gone positioned themselves in this way,or this this likely to be considered an offence?
Anything the subsequent person(s) said or saw is meaningless you may have in fact been loading when he saw you but it is not proof that you were loading when the pcn was issued.
Anything the subsequent person(s) said or saw is meaningless you may have in fact been loading when he saw you but it is not proof that you were loading when the pcn was issued.
As has been said, he doesn't have to prove loading. The Council have no right to assume that someone is lying when they have made a simple statement of fact. It never quite seems to sink in with you that Councils are effectively calling people liars - the very people they are supposed to serve.
T25 answers to questions/ i'm not sure what the questions were - but for what it's worth -
1/. Time on PCN - irrelevant (but see later) it is the time the CEO made the final observation while issuing the PCN.
2/. Note in window - good. Will be confirmed by their own pic evidence. You are allowed to secure the vehicle; allowed to find the correct recipient, etc,; allowed time to open and secure the storage facility - you explained it - the muppet ignored it.
3/. Obtain the notes of the CEO. That obs time on the PCN becomes relevant - if they say he obsd for 5 mins then his notebook must not show him elsewhere in that period - (no, seriously, they are that dumb!) there should be a record of the attendance of the Supervisor, at least in his own notes. they have ignored you on that - doesn't help them. Get the notes. Enquire about the other CEO present who said he hadn't issued the PCN - they must have a record of who was there, surely. His/her notes too.
If the Supervisor failed to record this event then make a formal complaint - that will rattle and discourage them. Not through parking channels - main complaints officer.
4/. Just to help - is there any record kept by the storage Co of your access?
5/. There is an error on Hackney PCNs which will help to encourage them. Show it to us - ALL of it.
The Packer case, offered by lamma, may well be relevant. Read it carefully. Haven't done so myself but as lamma says it is oft quoted as a definitive loading case.
Remember, whilst G&M indicates you have to prove your innocence - the opposite is true - the Council have to show that a contravention took place because that is what they have alleged. You have given them the info they need - they have said 'stuff you, gi's ya money'
talking of which, can we also see the rejection please.
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Got A letter today stating that they were cancelling the pcn,due to a 'procedural error'.
Heres the appeal I sent them:
I was loading,as stated in my previous appeals dated 16/10/2008 & 27/10/2008 respectively.The vehicle was obviously positioned in such a way as to allow access to the side door and a notice was placed behind the windscreen,stating that I was loading. In your correspondence,dated05/11/2008,signed by B.Ahmed,you state that the vehicle was observed for 5 minutes and that no loading was seen to take place.This is quite clearly untrue,as the original pcn,of which you and I both have copies,states that the vehicle was observed between 12.19 & 12.21,making 2 minutes in total. I have kept all copies of my correspondence with you,and I intend to pursue this matter . I have not committed any offence and I am certainly not going to pay a penalty for something of which I am not guilty.
I am guessing that they cancelled the ticket because of the discrepency in the times.Bit of a cop out really.
Remember, whilst G&M indicates you have to prove your innocence - the opposite is true - the Council have to show that a contravention took place because that is what they have alleged.
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Did I say that? What I said was....... being seen by someone loading after the pcn had been issued was not proof you were loading when it was.
'seeing' is not synonymous with 'loading' as we all know. Councils love to say loading 'must be continuous' but that is just rubbish. Loading can be happening without the CEO seeing anyone - G&M knows this well. Especially as the first post shows just two minutes observation time - patently inadequate.
Did I say that? What I said was....... being seen by someone loading after the pcn had been issued was not proof you were loading when it was.
Maybe I'm reading wrong but to me - yep - you just said it again.
Where do you get this requirement for proof? If that's not what you mean and I am misunderstanding then why mention 'proof' at all?
Having refuted the allegation there was never any need for him to 'prove' anything. Even if there was such a requirement then the actions witnessed at the point you refer to are a strong indication that he had always in fact been loading or undertaking ancillary tasks in respect of that loading.
Personally I never doubted him and it seems the Council realised their error or at least the need to cancel a PCN issued due to a misunderstanding. Isn't it great that it's such a reasonable world sometimes!
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Hackney loading
whilst loading goods from a storage facility into my van.The van had a sign in the window stating that I was loading and a phone number just in case I was causing an obstruction,as I was across a dropped kerb that led into a private loading bay(full).
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Originally Posted by lamma
