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Ok, so last Tuesday (28th october) the following letter arrived at Egg after I sent it recorded delivery...
Dear Sir/Madam
Account No: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974
As per sections 77-79 of the above act, I hereby request a signed True Copy of the Original Executed Agreement for the above account number.
By law, you must comply with this request within 12 working days of having received it.
The statutory fee of £1.00 is required to be paid for this information, and I have enclosed a £1.00 Postal Order. (number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
In responding to my request to supply a True Copy of the Original Executed Agreement, you must also provide any and all documents referred to in it. Where this may include terms and conditions as varied, I hereby specifically request a clearly readable and True Copy of the entire inception terms and conditions which form the original agreement, and all variations to them since.
Your obligations also extend to a signed statement of account.
I understand a copy of our credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.
I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to neither enforce an agreement, increase any alleged indebtedness, nor disclose any information regarding me to any third part, until such time you fully comply with my request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.
If you are unable to supply a True Copy of the Original Executed Agreement and all documents therein (and specifically the inception terms and conditions), I would be grateful if you would confirm this in your response within the 12 working days allowed.
This communication has been sent Recorded Delivery so I can ensure compliance on these issues within the legislative timeframes.
I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.
It's Thursday... That's 12 working days since they received the letter...
This is going in the post (registered, natch!) tomorrow... Anyone got any alterations I should make to it first?
Cheers!
re: my account number. Credit Card Formal Complaint Letter
Dear Sir/Madam,
With reference to my previous letter, I wish to draw you attention to your company's lack of compliance with my legal request.
On 24th October 2008 I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8, this letter was sent registered mail and was received at your office on Tuesday 27th October. A copy of this letter is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.
You have failed to comply with this request within the prescribed 12 working day limit.
The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and is signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.
As you may not be aware , your failure to comply with this request within 12 working days has now rendered the alleged debt UNENFORCEABLE in law. Furthermore, if this non-compliance continues for a further month then a summary, criminal offence is committed.
Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.
The lack of a compliant credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies in relation to this alleged debt, You:
* may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* may not pass the account to a third party.
* may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* may not issue a default notice related to the account.
As this account has now become unenforceable at law, any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.
After taking advice, I am also of the opinion that any continued pursuit is in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40, Protection from harassment Act 1997 section 3 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines.
I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.
You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.
I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you would prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets. Please reply in writing only, although please be aware that I will be recording all calls made to my telephone from your company for future reference.
I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.
I received a notice of default yesterday(they're a bit scarey aren't they?!?), the day after they received the above letter, must have crossed in the post... I have until the 11th December to contact them and sort it out according to their letter... they have until the 2nd to reply to my letter above... Lets see what happens next...
Received an A4 letter from Egg on Saturday 22nd November 2008...
Letter reads: This letter is about: Your Credit agreement reqest. It was sent to you on: 20th November 2008 (so well over the 12 days they were allowed to send it in)
Further to your recent request, I have pleasure in enclosing a copy of your signed Credit Agreement in accordance with your rights under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and a copy of your terms and conditions.
There is then 6 pages of credit agreement conditions, a page which is entirely printed and has no place for a signature which is apparently the "credit agreement", and then my direct debit instructions, which is signed by me (as it would need to be)...
Basically, they've just sent me proof that the loan is un-enforcible in court, or they've not supplied me with a full copy of the loan agreement, meaning that the debit is still in dispute and that they can't charge me anything on it etc.! Another letter going in the post today (registered, natch!) telling them this, and also pointing out that they've breached the CCA1974 in that it's taken them much longer than 12 working days to respond and send my credit agreement through...
Credit Card Formal Complaint Letter
Dear Sir/Madam,
I refer to your letter dated 20th November 2008 (which I received on Saturday 22nd November) in response to my CCA Request, which you received on Tuesday 28th October. You will note that this is well outside of the 12 working days (actually, over a full working week outside) allowed for this reply to be sent as laid down in the CCA 1974, and as such puts you in default for this alleged agreement.
Additionally, the Credit Agreement documents and terms and conditions you have now provided me with have no signature anywhere on them, nor any place on the documents for a signature as there would be if you had decided to execute your right to remove signatures from requested documents. The only signature on any of the documents you sent to me was on the direct debit Instruction, which does not form part of any credit agreement. This either means that you do not have a signed credit agreement for this alleged debt, or you have not sent me a true copy of the signed credit agreement. Either way, you still have not discharged your obligations under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, in particular section 61, meaning that this alleged agreement is still under dispute and therefore you (Egg bank PLC):
* may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* may not pass the account to a third party.
* may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* may not issue a default notice related to the account.
With regard to your warning letter informing me you intend to serve me a default notice on December 11th, which I received on Thursday 20th November, I would remind you that, (as stated above) in accordance with the OFT guidelines on debt collection and the Banking Code you are not permitted to take any action on the account whilst the dispute remains unresolved. Should you fail to comply with this, I will not hesitate to contact trading standards, the office of fair trading and the financial Ombudsman service.
I am now of the opinion that a court is precluded from enforcing this agreement by s127 (3) CCA1974 as it is improperly executed under s61 CCA 74, the consequences of improper execution are set out in section 65 CCA 1974 and s65 sets out that only a court can enforce an improperly executed agreement subject to certain qualifications, one of those is that the document is signed and contains all the prescribed terms. Now since this document does not contain any signature relating to the prescribed terms, s127 (3) CCA 1974 strictly prevents the court from enforcing this agreement.
I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. If you cannot supply me with a document which complies with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and ALL of the Regulations made under the Act, I shall be forced to make a complaint to Trading Standards and I will also draw this to the attention of the Office of Fair Trading.
I respectfully request you review this matter in light of my comments above and I request that you supply me the required information or alternatively confirm the account is closed and the debt written off with a zero balance.
You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is again a formal complaint.
I have enclosed copies of my two previous letters for your ease of reference.
received a very nicely worded letter today telling me that they'd received my complaint and were dealing with it, but that it may take up to 8 weeks for it to be resolved and for me to not contact trading standards or OFT until after that time if it still has not been resolved...
Isn't it amazing the change in tone of the letters you receive once they realise that you have learnt about what you've written to them about and aren't just going to roll over and give them an easy time...
Think that they may have sussed out that their agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on?
On 20th December I received a letter from Egg which I'll scan and post up later on tonight... It included a (very bad) copy of a fax which was a credit agreement signed by myself back in 1999. I've phoned them and requested a better quality copy as the one they've sent me is actually unreadable in places (the important bits, wouldn't you know it... ) and they're supposed to be sending a better copy to me today. It also enclosed an agreement for an old loan I had with Egg to prove that my signature was similar to that on the credit card agreement they've sent to me...
Anyway, What I need to know is about the times for the CCA request replies and what they cover...
1) is the initial 12 days from the date they receive the request to the date you receive the information, or is it until they send the information (mute point, as they didn't send a signed agreement until 20th dec, but for the letter I'm writing I'd like this clarified)
2) The further 30 calendar days, is this also until I receive the info, or until they send it?
3) If they've not replied within the 12 days, and then also the 30 days, but then reply outside of this timescale with a signed agreement, where do I go with it now?
They've now cancelled the account and passed the debt over to a collection agency (Drydens) who I spoke to yesterday and explained the situation, but I'm unsure as to where to go with this now...
I also think that the signed agreement they've now supplied me with is un-enforceable as it refers to another document for some of the terms and conditions of the APR which I don't think they're allowed to do on a credit agreement, are they?
Any help welcome! This is getting scary now and I'm seriously in need of some help!
As soon as I receive the better quality (ie, readable!) copy of the agreement, I'll post it up so people here can let me know if it is enforceable or not...
I didn't receive the (promised) readable copy of the agreement last night, so didn't scan anything in as there's no point in scanning something unreadable!
Received a letter this morning (19/01/09) dated the 15th with a better quality version of the alleged agreement and stating that this version has been inspected to verify that it's readable....
You'd have thought they'd have done that with the first one they sent out wouldn't you?!? Anywho, here's the scans of the "agreement" document...
Am I right in thinking that they're not allowed to reference another document (other than the CCA1974!) in their agreement like they do in the bit about the APR calculations?
I've de-personalised the pics below, they had the correct information for me on them, and my signature and a sensible date...
I look forwards to any comments you have on this...
Hi there, your agreement is exactly the same as mine.....unenforceable, it is missing a prescribed term 'credit limit' and therefore a court would be unable to enforce it. To be enforcable it must carry the term 'credit limit'
Here is the link to the thread for more info, including the letter I have sent in response.
Hi there, your agreement is exactly the same as mine.....unenforceable, it is missing a prescribed term 'credit limit' and therefore a court would be unable to enforce it. To be enforcable it must carry the term 'credit limit'
Here is the link to the thread for more info, including the letter I have sent in response.
Su-flippin'-perb! Thank you so much for that... I'l be writing a letter tomorrow (after I've read your thread fully) and posting it off to them (registered of course!) to get this debt collection agency off my back...
The letter below is going into the post in the morning... Anyone got any comments about it before I send it?
Credit Card Formal Complaint
Dear Mr. McConaghie,
Thank you for the letter I received from Ms. Jones dated 15/01/09 containing a legible copy of the “agreement” you have on file.
After consulting with my solicitors I have been advised that the copy of the “agreement” document that you have provided me with does not comply with s61(1) of the CCA 1974 and the associated regulations and is therefore only enforceable by an order of the court by virtue of s65. However, since it does not have a term concerning the credit limit (rather, it defines an "Approved Limit" - whatever that is) as required by Schedule 6 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, the court would be prevented from granting such an order by virtue of s127(3).
I also question the timings of your responses as listed in your previous letter of 20/12/08 where you state that Egg did respond within the prescribed times to my request for a copy of my credit agreement. I have listed the dates below on which you received letters from myself, and the replies to those letters from yourselves (the date on your letter, as well as the date I received them) and you will clearly see that you did not reply within the 12 working days initially allowed, and then also failed to reply within the 30 calendar days prescribed in the CCA 1974.
·My initial CCA request letter received at Egg 28/10/08 (Royal Mail Registered Post receipt copy enclosed)
·First reply from Egg received 24/11/08 (letter dated 20/11/08 )
·My reply informing that this was not a credit agreement due to having no signature or place for a signature and requesting a copy of a signed agreement should one exist (dated 24/11/08 ) was received by Egg 25/11/08 )
·Unreadable, signed “agreement” received 20/12/08 (letter dated 16/12/08 )
·telephone call requesting legible version of agreement made to Ms. Naomi Jones 12/01/09 (in your absence)
·Legible copy of signed “agreement” received 19/01/09 (letter dated 15/01/09) which has been found to be un-enforceable by a solicitor.
The prescribed 12 working days to reply to my initial request expired on 13th November 2008 – As above, the first response from Egg was dated the 20th November missing the deadline by a clear 5 working days.
The further 30 calendar days prescribed in the CCA 1974 expired on the 13th December 2008, and so the letter I received from Egg containing the alleged agreement, which was dated the 16th December, means that Egg had also missed this deadline, causing any agreement in place to be un-enforceable in court.
I trust you will now be in a position to reduce the balance on this account to £0 and remove any default that has registered with any credit reference agency as required by the Data Protection Act 1984, since it is obviously incorrect as no agreement existed between me and Egg. If you refuse, I will commence court proceedings against you under s14 of the Data Protection Act 1984.
I look forward to your favourable reply within the next fourteen days.
Received another letter from Drydens tonight asking what's going on... Will be sending the following letter in the morning... I think it nicely tells them to get lost without being too nasty...
Dear xxxx,
To clarify things slightly in regards to your letter of 20th January, I have not instructed any solicitors to act on my behalf; I am dealing with this matter as much as possible on my own. However, I have consulted with people specializing in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 who has inspected the document which Egg provided me with, and who stated that it was illegible (several lines of text were so badly reproduced as to be unreadable) and that I should request another legible version of it. This was what I informed you about during our telephone conversation on the 12th January 2009
Egg has now provided me (I received it on the 19th Jan) with a legible copy of this document, and I have again consulted with specialists who have confirmed that it is, as I suspected, unenforceable.
Please find enclosed a copy of the letter I have sent to Mr. McConaghie regarding the unenforceable nature of the document which Egg has provided me with, as well as the timings of my letters to Egg and their failure to meet the deadlines set out in the CCA1974, as well as a copy of the document which they sent to me.
Unfortunately I will be out of the country on business for the next week (I return to the UK on the 2nd February) and will not have my personal phone with me. If you need to contact me before this time, you can email me at: xxxx@xxxx.xxx as I will be checking this account daily while I am away. Failing that, I will reply to any letters, and, if necessary, contact you by telephone upon my return to the UK.
I trust that this answers any questions you may have as to the current position of this matter, and hope that we can draw this matter to a close in the near future.
Just received another letter...
Thank you for your letter dated 20 January 2009.
I have reviewed your complaint; however my original decision remains unchanged and the outstanding balance on your Egg Card ac**** is legitimate under the Consumer Credit Act.
If you remain dissatisfied with my decision, you were made aware of your referral rights within the acknowledgement of your complaint.
(and yes, it does say ac**** in the letter! Haven't they ever heard of a spell checker?!?)
Anyway, anyone got any advice as to how I take this further? The "agreement" is definitely not enforceable (see previous posts), but they seem to be playing hard-ball, and I'm stuck as to what to do now... I'm tempted now to go to a solicitor I've seen on-line who's charging £350 per card (onlly £50 if it's found to be enforceable) with no percentage take at the end and see if they'll take it on for a cheaper amount, seeing as I've already done most of the work... I just would really like to see this through myself, as I've started it, and got this far and it just kinda irks me to have to pay someone else at this stage when I know it's sooooo close...
I would say that as it is a professional letter-and as they claim understanding of the law, that it does not seem that great a stretch of imagination to presume they know how to spell!! Hard to prove but this is abuse, probably typed up by some frustrated data input lackey who is over promoted and underpaid!
Construct a letter about it re-iterating you hold the account in dispute and for their information ( they need it obviously) "their decision" is totally irrelevant, the consumer credit act deals with matters of fact not matters of opinion.
Hi J-dub, subbing
I too am having problems with Egg card and am contesting re the credit limit wording being omitted from the prescribed terms.
Wishing you good luck in your battle.
Livis xx
I've now passed this onto a company to deal with for me... for £25 to confirm that it's un-enforceabe and then £170 to deal with all the legals it's a lot less hassle than dealing with the debt collection company that's on my back at the moment... Oh, and the company I've gone with don't take any percentages at all, the £25 is the only payment to find if it's enforceable or not, and then if you decided to take it further, it's £170, so £195 maximum cost...
The were very impressed with how far I'd got on my own (with just the help from this forum) and the amount I knew about the CCA1974 and enforceable/un-enforceable loans...
Thank you to all who have helped with this... I'll keep reporting as to how this goes in this thread...
j-dub vs Egg card
after I sent it recorded delivery...
Reply With Quote
) and they're supposed to be sending a better copy to me today. It also enclosed an agreement for an old loan I had with Egg to prove that my 
Originally Posted by cosalt
