Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
I'm sure this is a familiar story. Please don't hesitate to point me to an existing link if I have missed one.
I sold a perfectly working piece of music electronics on eBay, and at a buyer's request, added a Buy it Now button and accepted payment by paypal.
The buyer acknowledged receipt of the item with undamaged packaging.
Same day as receipt, he claimed that he had plugged the unit in and switched it on, but that nothing worked. Sent me an ebay PM, and immediately raised a PayPal Not As Described claim.
When I found out about this, I was suspicious. I knew the item worked; I knew it had not been damaged in transit. I went along with some more of PayPal's resolution process. I gave reasons for my suspicions about this claim, and requested that the buyer sent back the item so I could inspect it.
The buyer sent back a different item. Specifically, the item returned had obviously missing front panel controls, which were not mentioned in the fault report, significant rease marks and wear and tear which were not present on my unit, and a missing power socket. That unit could not have been plugged in.
I reported this to PayPal, and the UK police. The Police decided to not press charges. Their experience is they cannot prove this fraud beyond reasonable doubt as per criminal law and obtaining goods by deception.
PayPal asked me to fax them a statement on headed notepaper by the police describing that they had seen this switched item. Understandably, they seem keener to not get involved.
Currently, PayPal have therefore decided I must be at fault.
I have explained my position to them, and demanded that they either (1) show me evidence to substantiate their allegations against me or (2) issue any refunds at their own expense.
Predictably, they are using all manner of FUD tactics and avoidance. They have supplied no evidence whatsoever.
I have pointed out that, as a private seller of a second hand item, in this case if they cannot supply evidence to the contrary, I have done nothing wrong and have no case to answer.
They have offered - following threats of publicity and legal action - to 'review' the case once more. I do not believe I should be answering anything! The reality is, at present, the buyer has obtained my working item, has had a refund from PayPal, and now PayPal want to recover that payment from me. I am unwilling to do this.
What are your opinions? Am I right in thinking that PayPal have no business taking a buy-and-switch fraudster at his word? Or do I really have to 'prove' my innocence to a totally bogus claim?
What would you suggest as my next step? Personally, I am so annoyed at their deliberate obtuseness I'd love to see a class action formed. But at the very least, I do not want judgements against me for refusing to pay this fraudulent 'refund'.
Surely, there must be some kind of legislation, contract law that applies and makes PayPal accountable for their negligence in not perfodimg due diligence in verifying the fraudster's claim?
Any help and advice is offered in good faith, based solely on my own knowledge and on experience gathered from this site. I am not qualified to offer legal or financial advice, which you should seek from an expert before making any important decisions. My opinions are therefore offered without liability.
Unfortunately, I've had a lot of negative experience with paypal. I've also helped out a lot of people with Paypal. I - like a lot of others - can't stand their guts.
Secondly, I recommend you draft a letter to Paypal describing everything that has gone on, clearly explaining the situation, preferably a witness statement from a friend, colleague, spouse?, or other family member that saw the item beforehand would also help.
Post the letter - minus any confidential information - up here and I'll try to proof it for you. It should state that if within 8 weeks you do not have a satisfactory response, you will either take them to court or to the Financial Ombudsman Service [www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk].
[Taking to them to court is a problem, because they are registered in Liechtenstein or Luxembourg - I get confused between the two - and that it is complicated, but it is worth threatening].
It should be addressed and sent to;
Paypal,
Whittaker House,
Whittaker Avenue,
Richmond,
Surrey,
TW9 1EH
That is their UK office. You'll have to wait 8 weeks for no response, or if you get an unsatisfactory response before then before complaining to the Financial Ombudsman Service.
I'll happily help you with the process - always happy to screw Paypal [costs them £450 for each complaint made against them to the fos, I'm already responsible - directly and indirectly - for causing them to spend over £9,900 on complaints to the FOS, and am very happy about that ]!
paypal have since passed the debt on to two debt collection agencies. The first one were quite pleasant people to deal with, and responded straight away to being told by phone that the debt was in dispute.
A second collection agency then started a scripted set of harrassment tactics. They ignored a verbal advice that the debt was in dispute, ignored a letter, but finally responded to a letter sent recorded delivery informaing them of being reported for contravening section 40 of the administration of justice act 1970.
Paypal finally responded from their executive escalations department. Predicatble result: they hadn't sone any additional work, and still want me to pay for their bad decision in favour of the buyer who defrauded ,e.
I am currently inclined to pay, and then take this further at my own pace. I think that I'd like to try the fos route, but I really wouldnt mind having a pop in court.
I think there is a reasonable case against them under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Acts 1999, which specifically prohibits them from using terms which attempt to exclude all liability from themselves.
Their defence strategy seems to be, from what they have set up in writing:
1. They are a payment service only
2. I/we agree to all their terms and conditions
1 is plainly wrong, as they act as some kind of intermediary. The moment they decided to give my money away was the moment they ceased to be a payment service only.
2 is plainly untrue the UTCCR 1999 is all about this kind of thing. If contract terms are not individually negotiated, then ones falling under the definitions of unfair in schedule 2 are not binding. It is plain that clicking on a web button 'I Agree' automatically proves the terms are not individually negotiated, so the act applies.
I'm not certain of the legal position in all of this, though. I'd like to think that the above act can be used to make Paypal responsible for their own decisions, so if they issue a refund that I disagree with, they have to pay.
Anyways - I don;t see a lot of suing of Paypal going on? What's the feeling around here - too much hassle? Uncertain of the case, like me?
Is it worth setting up some kind of UK group action, perhaps that we all pay a share to?
Let me know your thoughts. I love organising stuff.
I seriously don't recommend court proceedings. It is complicated to take proceedings against a European company and paypal is currently registered in Luxembourg. Their UK companies are dormant, and the contract is with the Luxembourg company.
I understand your statements re: the UTCCR's, but believe the fact that they aren't registered in the UK will complicate the case. Also, I am not sure that your application of the UTCCR's are correct. I would say that if you don't want to be lumbered with a hefty costs certificate don't risk court proceedings.
I would very much encourage you not to pay at this stage and instead take it to the FOS, and only pay in the unlikely event that you lose.
The account is in dispute therefore it is against the OFT rules for debt collection for the debt collectors to act on the debt. If you get telephone calls just say to them this account is dispute therefore it is against the OFT rules for you to attempt to collect this debt and then hang up the phone. When the complaint is submitted to the FOS, then if they call advise them that the dispute is with the FOS and if they call you once more or send you another letter you'll complain to the OFT.
I wouldn't bother complaining to the OFT because it won't be worth your time in my opinion. I know of 30 odd complaints against debt collectors for this exact reason to the OFT and nothing has happened because of them. If you want to feel free, but I wouldn't waste your time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional.
If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales.
Aren't the fos advising complainants that PP isn;t regulated in the UK?
They aren't but the FOS isn't the regulator. The FSA is the regulator. paypal are regulated in Luxembourg but covered by the voluntary passport complaints procedure, so they are covered for complaints with the FOS.
The FOS are accepting complaints against Paypal and Paypal pays up the complaints and the complaints fee because if they don't they lose the coverage by the FOS that helps them settle a lot of disputes and seem more reliable. In addition the FOS could then make a complaint to the Luxembourg regulator which would remove Paypal's regulatory certificate if the fees weren't paid.
So, in summary, Paypal is not regulated in the UK, but complaints against Paypal from it's users or former users may still be made to the UK office and then 8 weeks later to the FOS.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional.
If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales.
Decision made: I'll keep hold of my hard-earned, lightly-lifted for now and submit a complaint to the fos.
I've had a quick look through the form, seems largely ok. I'll read through your thread (legalpickle) that you pointed me toward to see how it's done. Any specific tips for this case gratefully received, but I'm not so cheeky as to expect you to do it for me!
I'll then send a special delivery reply in writing back to the named individual who sent me paypal's "final decision".
I note they have already started me up on their automated debt-collection cycle, as I suppose you would expect. But heading that irritation off at the pass will be no bad thing. They're cheeky - I'll give them that!
I don;t know what happens next. Is it a case of sit tight and wait for some initial FoS response or acknowledgement?
I think in my current case, I would be unsure of small claims court against PayPal. As I see it, they have assisted an online fraud to take place more easily, and/or inadequately protected my financial interests. I simply don't know enough to formulate the specific case. As above, I felt originally it may be their 'full indemnity' term, which seems to me specifically prohibited under schedule 2 of UTCCR. But you can see the debate. I really wouldn;t want to go to court with some cock-and-bull amateur lawyering and get laughed out of it. I wouldn't want to engage my own solicitors given the amount is less than £500. Good money after bad.
It seems to be a complex ask, as well. People I speak to about this get the 'buyer fraud' part - although they are often surprised initially that it's not the other way around. Fewer question PayPal's role in this; although ultimately, it was their actions in response to the buyer fraud that actually (might) cost me money. Local Trading Standards were not interested in this, and their supervisor disagreed with me about unfair terms from PayPal. Their opinion was that you get what you sign up for, and that 'our decision is final and you indemnify us' was reasonable. The discussion did not proceed much beyond that. I simply don't know.
Likewise, the Police were not much interested. They would not, of course, be involved with the PayPal contract dispute as that is purely down to civil contract law. They would be interested in 'obtaining property by deception' *if* that could be proved beyond reasonable doubt in criminal court. And of course it can't, and any half-baked lawyer should be able to get the fraudster off the hook on that one, short of him blurting out what he did in an admission.
So the kinds of companies and bodies you normally think of as having your interests at heart, in this kind of case, offer less help than you might hope.
I think that's why I'm on here - and hoping to contribute in due course - as I'm peeved that this sort of corporate bullying works. As things stand, PayPal provides people with a simple fraud mechanism. If I don't win my case, then there is no legal reason to pay anyone for anything on eBay/PayPal, and no legal redress for any seller hit by such a thing. It rests purely on the integrity of the buyer to pay up.
I'll keep you posted. I'll certainly add anything concrete I find to the guide page. I'm all untested opinion at present though!
Decision made: I'll keep hold of my hard-earned, lightly-lifted for now and submit a complaint to the fos.
I've had a quick look through the form, seems largely ok. I'll read through your thread (legalpickle) that you pointed me toward to see how it's done. Any specific tips for this case gratefully received, but I'm not so cheeky as to expect you to do it for me!
I'll then send a special delivery reply in writing back to the named individual who sent me paypal's "final decision".
I note they have already started me up on their automated debt-collection cycle, as I suppose you would expect. But heading that irritation off at the pass will be no bad thing. They're cheeky - I'll give them that!
I don;t know what happens next. Is it a case of sit tight and wait for some initial FoS response or acknowledgement?
thanks for your help with this,
much appreciated.
1. No need to respond to Paypal whatsoever. The FOS will tell them that a complaint has been submitted. You don't need to waste your time with it.
2. I have come across several complaints that were so ridiculously worded, I didn't know whether to cry or laugh. Not that I suspect you'll be one of them, but just go through what happened, and what you want to happen without trying to be overly smart and write something you think will earn you brownie points - because it won't. Preferably also post a copy of each section up here for us to proof it for you.
3. Firstly, you send the complaint form to the FOS by Special Delivery, then within about a week you'll receive an Acknowledgment saying they received it about 2 days after they actually received it, about 2 weeks later it will be allocated to the casework support team who will send you an acknowledgment that they have it now and will allocate to the next available adjudicator - which isn't entirely true, it's the next available adjudicator in the Paypal team - and then you should receive holding letters every 4-6 weeks saying they're still working through the mound of backlog they have due to incompetent administration and human resources and will let you know when they get to your complaint. Call them and you'll only get told that you can expect to wait another 3-4 months at least. Reckon 4-6 months till it's allocated to an Adjudicator and 6 weeks from then till it's sorted. When the Adjudicator receives the complaint he/she will write a letter introducing him/her-self with his/her phone number, fax number & e-mail address. Done it so many times I could tell you the process by heart without even looking at the screen or keyboard!
This is the same guy who hijacked one of these threads, I responded to and ripped his post to pieces and then a mod removed both because he shouldn't have hijacked or posted commercial links. Most of the stuff in there is not possible and thanks - freakyleaky - for pointing me in the direction of it, so that I can advise others in that thread what nonsense most of his post is. "Consumer-Empowerment" with 1 post, I wonder who that is?
Originally Posted by 616672Al
Nice page, thanks. Lots of good stuff.
For those who don't know that you can't sue a subsidiary company that is dormant and want a wasted costs order there's lots of good stuff!
So can we all, some of the time is to be stressed though, as it's till they're sick of you and can't be bothered answering you anymore!
Originally Posted by 616672Al
I think in my current case, I would be unsure of small claims court against PayPal. As I see it, they have assisted an online fraud to take place more easily, and/or inadequately protected my financial interests. I simply don't know enough to formulate the specific case. As above, I felt originally it may be their 'full indemnity' term, which seems to me specifically prohibited under schedule 2 of UTCCR. But you can see the debate. I really wouldn;t want to go to court with some cock-and-bull amateur lawyering and get laughed out of it. I wouldn't want to engage my own solicitors given the amount is less than £500. Good money after bad.
It seems to be a complex ask, as well. People I speak to about this get the 'buyer fraud' part - although they are often surprised initially that it's not the other way around. Fewer question PayPal's role in this; although ultimately, it was their actions in response to the buyer fraud that actually (might) cost me money. Local Trading Standards were not interested in this, and their supervisor disagreed with me about unfair terms from PayPal. Their opinion was that you get what you sign up for, and that 'our decision is final and you indemnify us' was reasonable. The discussion did not proceed much beyond that. I simply don't know.
TS are sometimes good and sometimes bad. I have dealt with TS in at least 4 councils and 1 has been excellent, 2 absolutely terrible and 1 ok, but not ideal.
It definitely isn't worth suing for and this Consumer-Empowerment guy doesn't know what he's yapping about.
Originally Posted by 616672Al
Likewise, the Police were not much interested. They would not, of course, be involved with the PayPal contract dispute as that is purely down to civil contract law. They would be interested in 'obtaining property by deception' *if* that could be proved beyond reasonable doubt in criminal court. And of course it can't, and any half-baked lawyer should be able to get the fraudster off the hook on that one, short of him blurting out what he did in an admission.
Sounds like the coppers!
Originally Posted by 616672Al
So the kinds of companies and bodies you normally think of as having your interests at heart, in this kind of case, offer less help than you might hope.
Sounds like the UK!
Originally Posted by 616672Al
I think that's why I'm on here - and hoping to contribute in due course - as I'm peeved that this sort of corporate bullying works.
The same way most consumer bigshots begin, but a lot drop out when they see how much corporate bullying there is and how hard it is to defend the little man against it.
Originally Posted by 616672Al
As things stand, PayPal provides people with a simple fraud mechanism. If I don't win my case, then there is no legal reason to pay anyone for anything on eBay/PayPal, and no legal redress for any seller hit by such a thing. It rests purely on the integrity of the buyer to pay up.
Yup! It seems fraud is the easiest way to make money in this world!
Originally Posted by 616672Al
I'll keep you posted. I'll certainly add anything concrete I find to the guide page. I'm all untested opinion at present though!
The "guide page" is hardly a guide as such, as a lot of that information there is misleading and likely to end somebody in a lot of trouble in court one day. I'm off to answer each and every point there, should be done sometime tonight. Thanks freakyleaky!
Good Luck Al!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional.
If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales.
Many thanks for your reply. I certainly will post sections up here, as I would very much appreciate your once-over of them.
Just as well that you pointed out the page-of-duff info. It's a definite trap for us newbies; Very difficult to spot bad advice if you don't have the knowledge
Interesting you mention a lot of folk are likely to give up once the scale of effort required is known. I'm looking at one problem, quite small, involves only me and it's taken a good deal of time, research and stress to so far achieve no conclusion. On the one hand it seems nice to encourage people to stand up against these things ... on the other, there's no shame in deciding to cut your losses and lose the stress. I guess different personalities and levels of expertise probably react quite differently.
I'm keen to at least see how this goes through the next step of fos, though.
Many thanks for your reply. I certainly will post sections up here, as I would very much appreciate your once-over of them.
No problemo.
Originally Posted by 616672Al
Just as well that you pointed out the page-of-duff info. It's a definite trap for us newbies; Very difficult to spot bad advice if you don't have the knowledge
Yup, a problem that's very common.
Originally Posted by 616672Al
Interesting you mention a lot of folk are likely to give up once the scale of effort required is known. I'm looking at one problem, quite small, involves only me and it's taken a good deal of time, research and stress to so far achieve no conclusion.
You misinterpreted my statement. What I was saying is how many people think they are going to make a difference and help other consumers and then realize how hard that is, then they give up. I wasn't referring to people starting to make a complaint and then giving up. That is a problem, though less common, because naturally people are more aggravated over what happens to them, than to others.
Originally Posted by 616672Al
On the one hand it seems nice to encourage people to stand up against these things ... on the other, there's no shame in deciding to cut your losses and lose the stress. I guess different personalities and levels of expertise probably react quite differently.
Cutting your losses is sometimes recommended, and I have recommended that on several occasions to people in different cases. In cases such as this however, complaining to the fos is not so stressful and costly, it also has no risk, so I would definitely recommend taking this approach with disputes with paypal.
Originally Posted by 616672Al
I'm keen to at least see how this goes through the next step of FoS, though.
Correction. A small 'o' would mean 'of' or something like that. Instead the 'o' should be 'O' represents the most important word in the name - Ombudsman.
Will take a few months till you find out that you succeed though. One big drawback of the FOS, it takes months till you even get an Adjudicator looking at your complaint.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional.
If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales.
The buyer sent back a different item. Specifically, the item returned had obviously missing front panel controls, which were not mentioned in the fault report, significant rease marks and wear and tear which were not present on my unit, and a missing power socket. That unit could not have been plugged in.
quote]
Hi there, sorry to read of your predicament.
Have you pulled the buyers contact details from ebay ?
Sometimes direct contact works.
Was the item returned using a trackable method of postage ?
But you're getting some great advice from legalpickle here.
The buyer sent back a different item. Specifically, the item returned had obviously missing front panel controls, which were not mentioned in the fault report, significant rease marks and wear and tear which were not present on my unit, and a missing power socket. That unit could not have been plugged in.
Originally Posted by supasnooper
Hi there, sorry to read of your predicament.
Have you pulled the buyers contact details from ebay ?
Sometimes direct contact works.
Was the item returned using a trackable method of postage ?
But you're getting some great advice from legalpickle here.
Thanks for the compliments. In my experience a direct approach does not work, as the people responsible deliberately defraud the seller, or buyer, depending on the case. Experience says the only route is against paypal via the fos.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional.
If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales.
legalpickle has it right here. This was a definite setup from the start, but I see that better with hindsight. The most compelling evidence of that is what the buyer actually did.
Within hours of receiving the package, they had
1) Asked me a bogus vague question "it doesn't switch on. Is this right?" which clearly is a staller. You wouldn't phrase things that way.
2) Raised a refund claim with paypal - within hours. Clearly there was never any intent to allow me to sort out any genuine complaints. I did not check email/ebay/paypal for a couple of days after that, due to having stuff to do. By that time, it was all over. A mountain of email/electronic correspondence between buyer and PayPal, with me nowhere in it.
3) Checking out the delivery address on Google Maps, it appears to be right on the coast; perhaps a beach house/guest house type of thing. So all I have is a probably fake drop address, and a hotmail account. So my guess is that the buyer would be very difficult to contact.
4) Something I did not pick up on: a delivery note on eBay to the effect of please make sure it is insured for full value and packed better than normal. Seemed odd at the time, but I thought nothing of it. Yet most normal people don't make those kinds of requests, looking back on my experience.
5) The ebay feedback. Silly me. Hundreds of all positives. If I had bothered to check closer, I would have seen that it was all automated shill feedback: the pattern of transactions and their timestamps resembled what a computer would do (Im a software guy myself), not what a human would or even could do. Points to a setup ebay account. You live and you learn! Since then, of course, this feedback has been made private. Funny, that.
I would say that by definition, once you know you've fallen victim to a fraud, you can rule out any civilised dealings with the person who did it. They knew what they were doing, and will have little reason for a change of heart, usually. Anything they do to admit the fraud will land them in potentially serious trouble. So it gets hard for them to back out.
I did attempt some simple communication and offered a 'golden bridge' - a chance for them to walk away from the fraud attempt without losing face or becoming liable. They didnt take it, though.
But in cases where there is less of a clear cut motive of intentional fraud, I would always recommend trying to talk it through with the person directly. At least until it becomes clear you're getting nowhere.
Well, laugh or cry, the best first draft I can come up with for the 'describe your complaint' box of the fos form is as follows. I welcome your thoughts, suggestions.
thx - Al.
============
This is about grossly unfair treatment of me by paypal. I have fallen victim to an eBay fraud by a dishonest buyer. PayPal want the fraudster to get away with it, and me to be out of pocket, despite overwhelming evidence that I have done nothing wrong.
Background: I had a house de-clutter, and decided to sell some no-longer used items on eBay. I did this as a private individual selling second hand goods. I sold a piece of music studio electronics – a personal digital recording studio. It achieved a realistic sale price of 350.00 GBP. Unfortunately, I fell victim to buyer fraud. The buyer planned to get hold of this item for free. To do this, he paid by PayPal, and took advantage of their 'buyer protection' policy. PayPal guarantee to refund a buyer if the buyer raises a claim that the item they received was 'Significantly Not As Described'. PayPal then seek to recover this money from the seller. The buyer simply raised a false claim that the item he received was damaged. I suspected otherwise, from a variety of sources and inconsistencies. When I asked him to return the unit, I found that he had switched the unit for a broken one. I still do not have the item I sent him.
PayPal are now trying to recover the sale price from me, thus completing the fraud attempt, plus some additional money due to some unfathomable internal policy about converting things to euros.
My complaint is about how unfairly and unreasonably PayPal have treated me in this. I am the victim of fraud. There has been a wealth of evidence from the start of this that this was a deliberate, well planned, well executed buyer fraud attempt, yet at no point have they taken any of my side of the story seriously. They have consistently evaded attempts to contact them, failed to act on information and evidence provided to them. In their final response, they even dispute that I had reported this matter to the police, and say I failed to provide them with a crime report number and contact details for the officer involved. I enclose a copy of the eamil I had sent them some considerable time earlier. I also enclose the evidence bundle I had laboriously assembled. This has probably taken between 40 – 60 hours of work.
In short, the police thought that whilst they would be unlikely to secure a criminal conviction in this case, the evidence I had should be sufficient for a civil case; on 'the balance of probabilities' it is clear that I have fallen victim to fraud.
PayPal have stubbornly refused to accept any of this. I have asked them to supply evidence to substantiate their claims that I supplied defective goods; none has been supplied. I advised them I was unhappy to offer a refund unless and until my original item was returned; so far, I have been sent something else. Their response is that they are only concerned about the buyer providing a postage tracking receipt. They are unconcerned about the actual contents of the box! I think this is grossly unfair, and potentially (for all I know) illegal.
I think that if PayPal want to offer a no-questions asked guarantee, but will not accept valid counter-evidence, they should honour it themselves. If I am forced to refund PayPal, then I will have lost my sale price plus about 70 GBP, the buyer will still – plainly – have a fully working item as delivered, and PayPal will have abused a position of power, at no cost to themselves.
Additionally, this account has been in dispute since day one of this case. I have had to fend off two debt collection agencies, one polite, the second far more unpleasant, with threats of legal action as they have attempted to collect the money despite the disputed status. I am very unhappy at this level of unprofessionalism.
Enclosed: email sent with full crime report details, evidence bundle sent to PayPal.
Well, laugh or cry, the best first draft I can come up with for the 'describe your complaint' box of the fos form is as follows. I welcome your thoughts, suggestions.
thx - Al.
============
This is about grossly unfair treatment of me by paypal. I have fallen victim to an eBay fraud by a dishonest buyer. PayPal want the fraudster to get away with it, and me to be out of pocket, despite overwhelming evidence that I have done nothing wrong.
Background: I had a house de-clutter, and decided to sell some no-longer used items on eBay. I did this as a private individual selling second hand goods. I sold a piece of music studio electronics – a personal digital recording studio. It achieved a realistic sale price of 350.00 GBP. Unfortunately, I fell victim to buyer fraud. The buyer planned to get hold of this item for free. To do this, he paid by PayPal, and took advantage of their 'buyer protection' policy. PayPal guarantee to refund a buyer if the buyer raises a claim that the item they received was 'Significantly Not As Described'. PayPal then seek to recover this money from the seller. The buyer simply raised a false claim that the item he received was damaged. I suspected otherwise, from a variety of sources and inconsistencies. When I asked him to return the unit, I found that he had switched the unit for a broken one. I still do not have the item I sent him.
PayPal are now trying to recover the sale price from me, thus completing the fraud attempt, plus some additional money due to some unfathomable internal policy about converting things to euros.
My complaint is about how unfairly and unreasonably PayPal have treated me in this. I am the victim of fraud. There has been a wealth of evidence from the start of this that this was a deliberate, well planned, well executed buyer fraud attempt, yet at no point have they taken any of my side of the story seriously. They have consistently evaded attempts to contact them, failed to act on information and evidence provided to them. In their final response, they even dispute that I had reported this matter to the police, and say I failed to provide them with a crime report number and contact details for the officer involved. I enclose a copy of the eamil I had sent them some considerable time earlier. I also enclose the evidence bundle I had laboriously assembled. This has probably taken between 40 – 60 hours of work.
In short, the police thought that whilst they would be unlikely to secure a criminal conviction in this case, the evidence I had should be sufficient for a civil case; on 'the balance of probabilities' it is clear that I have fallen victim to fraud.
PayPal have stubbornly refused to accept any of this. I have asked them to supply evidence to substantiate their claims that I supplied defective goods; none has been supplied. I advised them I was unhappy to offer a refund unless and until my original item was returned; so far, I have been sent something else. Their response is that they are only concerned about the buyer providing a postage tracking receipt. They are unconcerned about the actual contents of the box! I think this is grossly unfair, and potentially (for all I know) illegal.
I think that if PayPal want to offer a no-questions asked guarantee, but will not accept valid counter-evidence, they should honour it themselves. If I am forced to refund PayPal, then I will have lost my sale price plus about 70 GBP, the buyer will still – plainly – have a fully working item as delivered, and PayPal will have abused a position of power, at no cost to themselves.
Additionally, this account has been in dispute since day one of this case. I have had to fend off two debt collection agencies, one polite, the second far more unpleasant, with threats of legal action as they have attempted to collect the money despite the disputed status. I am very unhappy at this level of unprofessionalism.
Enclosed: email sent with full crime report details, evidence bundle sent to PayPal.
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Problems: The Financial Ombudsman Service aren't interested in your alleging illegal behaviour and "unprofessionalism" (the latter of which isn't a word). They also aren't interested in you saying that Paypal were "stubborn" or any other allegations. They are interested in a Breakdown of what happened, including dates and a clear breakdown of who wrote to who and when, as well as what you want to happen to rectify the matter.
The Financial Ombudsman Service is not a regulator. They have no ability to punish Paypal. All they can do is to tell Paypal to put things right.
The complaint in that thread has been brought, so it shows exactly what should be written.
Finally, ignore the boxes with specific questions about the case in the FOS form. They are too small to fill in everything and too specific for cases with Paypal. Fill in the form as I advised in the other thread to whiterose11 and look at the PDF file I attached to that thread which shows how the attachment should be written.
When you've prepared that I'm happy to proof it for you to make sure it makes sense.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional.
If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales.
PayPal, Buyer Fraud - suing PayPal ***Issues Resolved ***
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All the information I impart is my advice based on my experience. It does not constitute professional advice. If in doubt, always consult with a professional. 
If you feel my post has been helpful, please click my scales. 
Originally Posted by buzby
