Hello, I am new to the forums, but I have been browsing recently and have been very impressed by the information given here!

I have a big problem with an insurance company and the broker who sold me the policy, which I may require advice and input from the forum for in the near future, should I take the matter any further.

Basically, one major part of the dispute comes down to the policy excess being unclear, and in my opinion being misleading to me the consumer. I have been searching the internet for any guidelines or rules on the wording and what information motor insurance companies must include on the policy or schedule documents, without finding anything set in stone or incredibly helpful, so I'm hoping someone here can help me!

I rang a broker in order to take out a motor insurance policy, they provided me with a couple of quotations, one being more expensive, however the excess was lower, which I took, as a stupidly high excess did not appeal to me and the difference in premiums was not huge. The broker confirmed all the information over the phone, my excess was £250 etc etc. I paid there and then in full over the phone, cover was immediate, then the schedule was sent out, which confirmed the excess as being £250. I then received the full insurance schedule, policy document and an extra booklet from the insurance company. The insurance schedule clearly states under "Excess" that; "You must pay; The first £250 of each claim for fire, theft or attempted theft."

There are no other notes, exclusions, references to referring to other wording or any other excess amounts, voluntary or young driver excesses stated on the document. The insurance policy itself does not state or mention the excess. Under the section at the bottom mentioning other endorsements or policy wording, it says; "The following endorsements apply. Please refer to the Policy Wording for a full description of Endorsements Numbers. NONE" Here is where section 1, section 9 referring to a young drivers excess should be listed in my opinion, to make it clear, however it is not!

So, when it comes to my vehicle being stolen, through no fault of my own in any way, all keys in my custody, vehicle secure outside my home, I report the theft as per the requirements of my insurance. I double checked at the time what the excess was, as the documents were not with me, it was confirmed to be £250.

Fast forward several weeks, in which the insurance company themselves did not contact me, I chased them and eventually I get a verbal offer made over the phone which worked out to be £50. When I questioned this stupidly low settlement, it transpired that the excess on the policy had been calculated at £750. I didn't have my policy to hand, but knew it was £250, to which I was then told to refer to the policy booklet, which stated than; "If the insured vehicle is damaged while a young or inexperienced person is driving, or in charge of the insured vehicle, you will have to pay the first part of the cost as shown below. This is on top of any other excesses you may have to pay.

Drivers under 25 £500

Inexperienced Drivers over 25 £200."

I was told that on my schedule the wording would be along the lines of "You must pay the first £250 of any claim, plus any other excess that may apply," which covered this extra excess. My argument stems from the fact that the policy or schedule do not have this wording, and do not show all excesses clearly. Being 23 at the time the yound drivers excess is hidden and unclear, as being the policy holder and the only person insured on the policy, they have my date of birth, so any excess that could potentially apply to me can be clearly written on the schedule. The booklet wording does not cover or mention theft, I have found on one website that this excess does not apply in the event of the vehicle being stolen, but cannot find any other evidence of this being the case. Also what effect does my age have on the event of the theft of the vehicle, it creates no extra risk as far as I can see!?!

I have since rung my broker and asked them to clarify my excess, to which they still believe it is only £250. They have been otherwise pretty unhelpful, as they will not return calls or clairfy the matter properly. They have let the insurance company deal with me, who are very unhelpful and intimidating. The broker sold me the policy on the basis it was a lower excess, and claim to have been unaware of any young drivers excess.

As far as I see it, it is not like a policy where by there are several people on the policy, with at least one being under 25, and then the different excess statements are applied in order for the policy to cover the outcome of each driver and their ages, I am the policy holder and only person insured on it to drive those vehicles, so any excesses that apply to my age can be listed. The booklet wording implies to me, a driver being someone other than the policy holder, given permission to drive the vehicle, or if listed as a named driver on the policy.

So my question is, can anyone clarify if there are any rules or regulations with regard to what must be shown on the policy or schedule by the insurance company? Hiding information in a booklet, which is still unclear is in my mind devious and is concealing the extra excess from me the consumer. At the stage of agreeing the policy I was never made aware of it or was it shown clearly on the agreement schedule. To try and justify this excess, a pushy, arrogant, intimidating and quite threatening senior member of staff at the insurance company renamed it as an added young drivers premium, or a deduction from any payment made, however this booklet calls it an excess!

As I've previously mentioned, as this was a theft of my vehicle, of which my age has no added risk or relationship with, I should not be penalised, should someone over 25 have been the last person to use the vehicle, they would save £500! This amounts to ageism! I can understand an insurance company adding a risk based excess for young drivers when they are involved in the accident, if they are to blame, and I would have probably had no choice but to agree to this, but I have never been made aware of it and if it was not clear when I took the policy out.

Sorry for the long first post, but I have tried to include as much information as possible. I can understand that the young drivers excess is laid out in the "small print" however it is not clear how it applies to me, a 23 year old policy holder, who, had given my date of birth during taking out the policy and any documents should be tailored to reflect this information, and the excess information, should in theory show the total cost I should expect to pay in any claim, which it does not!

My next step is to contact the Financial Ombudsman Service, which I'm not holding out much hope of them really helping, has anyone had much experience of them?

Many thanks in advance.

The FSA has a handbook on policy wording and layout.

I can sympathise with you but cannot say (without seeing the document) that the broker / insurer is wrong. Most policies have virtually standard wording and layout.

The endorsements would not list any additional excess due to being a young or inexperienced driver - that is part of the policy anyway.

However, The FOS is it's own animal. I have seen decisions which are ludicrously unjustified for both sides, but they do tend, in my expeience, to lend themselves more towards the insured.

I would await their decision as there is little you can do now anyway. If any wording is unclear or ambiguous then standard market practice will be looked at and possibly the contra preferentum rule applied (which means that any ambiguous wording is to be construed against the author of the statement). This however is more of a last resort.

I suspect the answer will be that you were given documents, had the chance to read them and to query or cancel if you didnt understand or like them.

Hi Gyzmo, thanks for your reply. I haven't contacted the FOS yet, as I understood I must first complain to the insurance company, then allow them ample time to try and resolve the problem within their own internal complaints procedure, and preferably wait until I receive their final response, which I now have. It is my next port of call.

I will before contacting the FOS, issue my insurance company with a letter in response to theirs. They have even made a mistake when listing the young or inexperienced driver excesses within their letter, getting an amount wrong by £300, which is a clear indication of the rest of the confusion and inaccuracies throughout my dealings with them.

I understand what you say about most policies wording, and to me this policy does differ from the normal policies I've ever dealt with that normally list young driver excesses on the schedule or policy, clear as day for all to see. When it comes to asking other questions, I may scan the document and blank out personal details and the company involved so people can see the exact wording.

I can understand once again what you say about receiving documents to read and understand, the problem being, there was no confusion until they demanded an extra £500 on top of my standard clearly written excess! My excess is explained as £250, my broker sold it me as having an excess of £250, and even they were completely unaware of any young drivers excess, they have since started making people aware of this when selling policies due to my complaint, so how many other people are unaware of the extra excess?

One thing I can see in my favour so far is that the insurance company have admitted both verbally, and in writing that they have increased their offer to me, due to my conversations with them, as "You felt the policy excess was not clear." This is cleverly worded, not admitting they are responsible for unclear wording about the excess, but that I have misunderstood or feel it is unclear. Everyone who I have shown the documents and wording to, without any prompting, come to a similar understanding of the policy as I do.

There are many other problems that have arisen throughout this whole claim, which have caused some major grief for me. I can honestly say I don't have a good word about them.

One thing I have found in my many hours of searching regarding a young drivers excess is; "

It is a complex field by it's very nature. Unless you have insurance training or a good intellect I would not bother (please do not take that as a slant).

If you have complained to your insurer then you have gone about it the best way. Once you get their final response, or a missed deadline, then go to the FOS if you are not happy. But in doing so please make sure it is a genuine case of feeling mislead and not one of a vexatious nature.

Again, without seeing the documentation it is difficult to say on way or another. But taking what you say in your second paragraph indicates some justification for claiming to be mislead.

Do let us know how you get on - there will be many who will wish you well and others who will also be interested in the FOS verdict - or even that of the insurer / broker. They often decide on resolution of complaints based on its cost compared to the FOS fee - regardless of whether the complaint is justified.

If the policy documentation is online then post a link up here.

My gut feeling is that any additional excesses have to form a part of the policy documentation, or be listed in the policy cover guide that you receive. I'm not 100% on this area (but I'm not sure how it can be any other way).

It is not unusual for other excesses to be included (for example windscreen is a totally different cover with it's own excess rules), but I don't see how these can be applied if not in the documentation that you are sent. If nothing else it gives you no opportunity to decide that you don't like the cover you have bought and cancel it.

There's a part of the FSA guidelines called TCF (treating customers fairly) that I expect would cover this sort of thing. Basically if it is not written in your policy, your documentation, and your broker did not tell you, then you can't be held to it because you were not aware. Effectively the contract would not have been sent to you in utmost good faith.

I agree that the FSO is the best direction to go if you get no joy from your insurers, but I think everyone here would be able to give more specific advice if you can show us the policy documentation and guide.

Thank you for your replies.

Gyzmo, it really is a case of being misled, the first I knew of the excess was when the insurance company eventually returned a call or spoke to me weeks later, telling me the vehicle had been declared a write off and that their settlement was £50, asking how on earth they'd arrived at this figure when they explained, I was in shock, as I was never aware of the extra £500 they were now applying as a 'young drivers excess.'

The insurance company have not and will not put anything discussed over the phone in writing to me, including terms and conditions, anything about the vehicle being written off and it's classification, instead a cheque was issued eventually, for a higher, but unacceptable amount, due to me disputing their excess and valuation, with a few words along the lines of finding a cheque attached as settlement for the claim.

My broker would not even return my calls, as I arranged the policy through them and paid them directly, I believe they have a duty to help and aid the satisfactory resolution of any problems. They have now told me, after I have phoned them several times a day since Tuesday, that I can't expect anything more, the insurance company have in this instance adjusted the payout as there was confusion or that I felt I was misled. However any further claims would be liable for the full £750 excess, despite me having not been sold the policy under these conditions or being aware of it.

A further part of the problem with this claim and my general complaint regarding the insurance company is that the insurance company did not contact me, or would not return my calls after I had reported the theft of my vehicle.

My vehicle had been recovered by the Police for forensic testing, by a private company, who charged the recovery fee, and then for storage every day it was there. I wanted to firstly know what was covered, if anything. No one would answer my questions, telling me someone would call me back, but never did. One of my first questions after reporting the theft of the vehicle, as I did not have my policy to hand, was asking someone to confirm the excess on my policy. I was told it was £250. Something the broker also confirmed when I asked on several occassions. As the vehicle was incurring storage fees I wanted to know if I was liable for them and if I should pay them as soon as possible to reduce the overall cost. No one would get back to me.

I was eventually sent an 'accident report form' after many phone conversations. This turned out to be the wrong form, as it should have been a theft or stolen vehicle form. It arrived weeks after the theft, however stated on the front that if it wasn't filled in and returned within 7 days of the incident, otherwise the claim may be void!

I filled in the appropriate parts of the form, most of it wasn't applicable, and was later asked over the phone for further documentation and confirmation of other things, which I provided, nothing was asked for in writing, they claim they never received the extra information, but never asked for it again or enquired as to if I had sent it. Before the form was received and I gave any permission for them to collect or in any way move my vehicle, or that I wished to persue any claim, my vehicle had been recovered to a storage yard without my permission or knowledge.

I had seen the vehicle when it was found, and the damage was minimal, but due to the age of the vehicle, it would probably be deemed a write off, but IMO it would be borderline. I have photographic evidence of the vehicle when it was found, and witnesses who could prove the condition of the vehicle.

On the phone when I had managed to talk to anyone, I had explained that no matter what the outcome I wished to retain the vehicle whether it was deemed a write off or not. I did not want it dragged about all over the place and asked if an assessor could look at it where it was? I was told it may be assessed from photos, but it would probably be moved to a place of free storage first, but no one could tell me where this was.

It ended up being moved a couple of hundred miles away, BEFORE my 'incident form' was received, and I had given any form of permission or had shown any wish to make a claim after reporting the theft. Here it was moved with a forklift or loader, something the private company admitted, and since the insurance company have admitted, causing extensive damage to the exhaust, turbo, steering components, brake pipes, prop shaft and body work. They had apparently been told it was scrap, before any independent assessor had even looked at it.

The assessors report listed an extensive amount of damage (however none of the damage caused by the storage company is listed), some of which I can prove never existed and still does not. I had to really push to get the information. They claimed the damage amounted to nearly £3000, way in excess of what they valued the vehicle at. The vehicle only required a new quarter glass in the front window, an ignition barrell and a section of the front bumper, and if pushed to it a couple of other small items.

I have experienced an incredibly rude and arrogant member of staff from the insurance company over the phone, trying his best to intimidate me into going away and giving up. Despite asking not to be contacted by him again, anyone else but him, he rang me back once more to state their position and try to deter me.

The insurance company claim they have 'paid out' for the vehicle, so further damage, even if it was caused by them or while in their care will not be covered. I have not accepted their 'settlement' for several reasons, so they have not met with an agreement. I could of, and was planning to repair the vehicle myself, knowing it would have cost a lot less sourcing second hand parts and then having the vehicle VIC tested to remove the write off classification, especially as I knew the extent of the damage to the vehicle, but now, the damage, caused after the theft while in the care of the insurance company, is so extenstive, it is not worth it.

Wulfyn, in your fourth paragraph you've summed it up as I see things, if my broker did not alert me, nothing in the paper work, policy or schedule made reference to the extra excess, or that it in anyway it applied to me, considering the quotation and policy is tailormade to suit my needs, age, cover required etc, any excesses applicable should be clearly shown and understandable.

My broker effectively mis-sold me the policy, they took the money, so they should be sorting out this mess, based upon the facts I was given, I had no reason to question or query any policy excess, as to me, it is clear that it is £250, end of, no extra wording is present as the insurance company initally tried to claim, such as it stating as well 'any other exesses that may apply.' As it was done over the phone, the information was sent to me, so that in theory any mistakes could be corrected, the schedule checked and returned, and as I understand it, a cooling off period was allowed, but from the information shown at that time, no mention was made of the extra 'young drivers excess' so I could not either cancel or question it at this point.

I still maintain that the wording of the young drivers excess applied to this policy does not cover theft, it mentions damage to the vehicle while the young person is in charge of the vehicle, not the outcome if the vehicle is stolen. Being the policy holder and only person ever in charge of the vehilce under the policy, it would have been nice of them to inform me of this excess.

Now both the insurance company and broker have had more than enough time to resolve this situation sensibly and amicably, one has given their final response in writing, the other verbally, both of which I am going to confirm in writing, giving them a final chance to address the problem. The the FOS is now going to be contacted.

At this stage I don't know the legal complications of naming the companies involved, so I cannot provide a link to the online terms and conditions etc. However, I will when I get chance scan the documents and remove any personal details and distinguishable references to the companies involved, so you can see what I am basing the complaint upon and give your opinions.

Many thanks.

i thought that only the theft excess would apply & any compulsory vehicle excess? the YD excess would only apply to the driver at the time of an accident etc?