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Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Hi,
A friend of mine is £900 out of pocket and I wondered if anyone can advise on next steps. I know an outline of what has gone on but not specific details as they are still traumatised over the experience.
My friend bought a flat and decided to have a new kitchen fitted.
All the kitchen units where purchase but the supplier want £2.5k for fitting, which seemed steep as it is a small kitchen and they had a relative who does kitchens anyway.
This meant only a plumber was required to do the pipework working with the kitchen guy (relative) to make sure things go where they should.
A local plumbing company was found in the yellow pages who carried out a site visit (the Manager/boss) and the situation was explained that a relative would be fitting the kitchen and a plumber was required to work with him and it was anticipated 2 days work. The manager offered to do the job for £900 'cash-in-hand'. This was accepted and the manager said to contact them closer the time and he will send over a plumber.
A date was agreed but at the last moment the kitchen fitter had to cancel but a plumber turned up, he was told he would have to come back as the kitchen fitter had to cancel. The plumber said ok no problem.
I'm not sure at which stage but my friends flatmate (also joint flat owner) handed over the £900 in full at the request of the plumbing company manager or one of the plumbers. No receipt was issued presumably as it was a 'cash-in-hand' deal.
Two weeks later the kitchen fitter was back on schedule and so another date was agreed when the kitchen insatallation was to take place.
Both tradesmen turned up and started work.
However, some sort of problem quickly arose, which I think was to do with routing of pipework which couldn't be changed. The kitchen fitter suggested a workaround which possibly meant the plumber had to leave the job and come back again another day. The plumber didn't like this and basically walked off site stating thats it, he won't be coming back.
telephone calls to the plumbing company manager then went unanswered. When somebody did pick up the phone they said their time has been wasted and they won't be coming back.
So my friend had to get someone else in and the plumbing has been done.
To Summarise;
My friend is £900 out of pocket on a 'cash-in-hand' deal.
The plumber/plumbing company did 3-4 site visits but no quantifiable work due to issues arising.
The £900 has not been refunded.
The plumbing company manager who instigated the deal seems like he is not interested anymore but happy to have kept the money.
The person who handed over the full amount has been grilled thoroughly.
What are the available options to recover the £900 as no tangeable work has been done by the company or any contractors on their behalf?
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
letter before action, by recorded delivery, asking for a refund followed by court action.
RMW
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Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Originally Posted by reallymadwoman
letter before action, by recorded delivery, asking for a refund followed by court action.
Reading what the OP has said it appears there's nothing actually in writing to support any court action; no estimate, no bill from the plumber, no receipt for the money handed over and no cleared cheque as evidence money was paid.
It seems to me all the manager/plumber has to do is say something along the lines of "Dunno what you're talking about Guv', what £900"!!
Alternatively I suppose he could also argue that the money paid was 'for time spent'!
Also, by going down the "let's do it officially" route the OP could, in theory at any rate, possibly be accused of aiding and abetting tax evasion by agreeing to cash-in-hand in the first place, especially if the plumber is VAT Registered as well. I should perhaps qualify that by adding that in my experience as a customer, most cash-in-hand jobs rarely find their way onto trader's official books.
Involving the police for a possible fraud has inherent risks too in view of my comment above. That's assuming they would be at all interested in view of the seeming attempt at fraud (both tax-wise and possibly fraud on the plumbing company if the 'manager' was not self-employed but worked for a bigger company).
About forty years ago I had a garage built at my new house by the developer's staff. Two years later I had a knock on the door one evening by the local CID; they were investigating a number of garages on the site and initially mentioned that I could in theory be accused of receiving stolen property (i.e the bricks etc. used)! I was fortunate that I had made all the arrangements with the developer's site agent, had paid him personally by cheque and could provide proof that I had paid for the materials and labour.
Jimbo 44 - always happy to help, but always willing to learn from being corrected too!!! Whilst any advice given may be based upon personal experience, please always be sure you seek guidance from a professional in the particular field.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark, but a large group of professionals built the Titanic.
A 'click' on the scales is always appreciated if I have helped. Many Thanks!
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Alarm bells should have rung as soon as "cash in hand" was mentioned - a classic sign that it is either a con or that the company is not really interested in complying with the law or doing a good job.
I would notify Trading Standards / Consumer Direct asap. There could very well be other complaints about the company.
And I am sure Her Maj's tax people will be interested....
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Hi,
Thanks for your posts.
I did think small claims court was the way to go and the cash-in-hand issue did cross my mind. But I still think companies like that can't get away with it.
One more question.
Can 'witnesses' attend/be called in a small claims court case?
Despite there not being a receipt 4 people were aware of this deal and met the plumbing company manager/a plumber (friend, friends mother, flatmate, kitchen fitter).
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Thats as maybe, but what was established as to amount of work to be done; they had to leave site twice and come and also revise the arrangement, which was forseen; therefore possibly subjcet to additional costs.
Try court action by all means but what would you be claiming for, amount etc.?
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Hi,
Surely you mean unforseen?
Well claim would be for £900 less market rate for 2 actual call outs.
No tangeable work was done, no materials were consumed and previous site visits regarded as free estimates.
So I would see a generous call out rate to be £50, so the claim would be for £800 (900 less 2 X 50)
There are no rearrangement costs as the plumbing company do not answer their phones any more.
Even playing devils advocate, I doubt a magistrate/judge will see that 4 site visits lasting no more than 4 hours in total by an average plumber can reasonably cost £900 (£225 ph, £3.75 a minute).
C'mon, I'm losing the feeling this is supposed to be a consumer forum.
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Yep, but who was the arrangement made with, company or individual, did the management/directors no off the deal? can you prove they did?
can you prove/evidence that you paid the money and who to?
Also the judge would not take kindly to the fact you were compliciate in defrauding the Vat/revenue!
Sorry but thats my thoughts. Take them to small claims, but first you need to put all this in writting to them and give 14 days to respond.
Are you sure they are still trading, if not answering phones.
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Originally Posted by raydetinu
Also the judge would not take kindly to the fact you were compliciate in defrauding the Vat/revenue!
The Judge shouldn't even consider it.
a) such intent to defraud is a criminal matter and outwith the purview of the civil court;
b) The OP is not at all complicit in any attempt to defraud HMRC. Whilst we are probably all aware that cash-in-hand will not normally go through the books, in this case there is no evidence that the OP was aware that was would be the intent of the plumber. If there was a witnessed statement by the plumber to the effect that if he was paid cash, he wouldn't being paying tax, and the OP still went ahead with the deal, then this might put a different aspect on matters.
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Its implied, otherwise why was no quatation or receipt given!
If the money was given to an empolyee, they could just say he never passed it on!
There so many pitfalls in this I would be embarassed to proceed with it.
Also why do people part with money before work or services are carried out! you should only pay when the work has been done and satisfactorilly.
A small goodwill deposit may be ok just to confirm intent and the booking is all that most firms require.
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
ok, so special delivery letter to individual at company address advising 14 days to sort out or small claims court action will be initiated.
Who the arrangement was made with will have to be addressed, but as far as I know the manager who initially turned up to do the estimate made out it's his company or a t/a outfit. So this IMO will have to be decided by the court, but the fact there are 4 witnesses who dealt with this company/manager/a plumber acting on behalf of the company/manager should prove an agreement was reached. Otherwise why would they have returned to the site and for what reason other than to provide/attempt to provide a prior agreed service which they received payment for. The fact whether the directors of the company (if there are any) is irrelevant as it is assumed they have authorised employees of the business/company to act on their behalf within their individual capacities and in the interests of the business/company as a whole - otherwise you'd have directors signing off the purchase of pencils & rubbers. That sounds much like a company law type concern to me and IMO outside the scope of the issue, for now. If the manager turns up in court and says "Dunno what you're talking about/what money?" its his word against 4 witnesses.
Well 1 of the witnesses will be the flatmate who will confirm how much money and to whom the money was handed to.
My friends flatmate has been phoning at least 3 times a day and some calls are answered some not. When answered I'm told conversations don't last long.
Fair enough there is a potential HMRC issue here but of course the flipside is the other person who is in effect stealing & also defrauding VAT. Knowing my friend they would never suggest anything illegal and I'm sure it was more of a case of the tradesman saying "I could do the job cheaper for you..." and being persuaded into it.
If the case hinges on it then I'm sure my friend will only be too happy the money is recovered and donated to charity as punishment for their naivity. At least this way the money is recovered, the tradesman doesn't get away with it scott free and my friend learns a valuable life lesson.
One more thing, should this be reported to the Police as a fraud or theft? In case the 'company' defends the claim by saying the manager was never employed by them or is no longer employed by them. Then a claim needs to be issued against the individual (manager)?
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Originally Posted by raydetinu
Its implied, otherwise why was no quatation or receipt given!
Yes, I agree that it is. What it does not have however, is sufficient evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) to meet the burden of proof necessary for a criminal conviction.
Re: Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
Originally Posted by raydetinu
Also why do people part with money before work or services are carried out! you should only pay when the work has been done and satisfactorilly.
A small goodwill deposit may be ok just to confirm intent and the booking is all that most firms require.
Yes thats easy to say.
This was my friends/friends flatmates first ever encounter with a tradesman. They opened the yellow pages, called someone local and said yes.
IMO the tradesman saw they had "vulnerable" written all over their faces and took advantage of it. We all have to have our first experience and this was theirs and they have lost £900.
There so many pitfalls in this I would be embarassed to proceed with it..
So we should all become tradesmen and prey on the uninformed defrauding them of money and get away with it?
If nobody takes a stand and the courts recognise this goes on then how can it ever stopped?
Plumber took £900 - no work actually done, no refund, doesn't answer phone...
to the plumbing company manager then went unanswered. When somebody did pick up the phone they said their time has been wasted and they won't be coming back.
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Originally Posted by reallymadwoman
