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Hello! This is my first message to this forum and I would appreciate any advice or guidance. I have read most of the threads and also looked at related websites. Here's my story:
Yesterday I received two invoices from PPCs for overstaying in two car parks on the 2nd October. Looking for information I found this forum and intend to follow the advice and take the issue further. More on that in a minute.
Today I received a pcn from Transport for London for being on a bus lane on 25/9.
I briefly considered suicide, as three in two days is too much! I also considered just paying it all to get it over with, as I have a major exam next week and I need some peace and quiet to do some studying (the extended stays in the shops were a form of procrastination for the exam!).
I'm afraid I'll have to pay the PCN, but I will ask to see the video first, as the notice simply states "Edgware Road, Brent", but no indication as to the location. In any case, I wouldn't want to take on the local authorities, I can't afford a solicitor and cash is low.
Anyway, on with the PPCs. One positive thing about receiving two letters is that I can compare the wording.
The first is from Town & City for overstaying at South Brent Retail Park. I understand that this firm are known [problem]mers. I suppose it won't be a surprise to say that the letter talks about a penalty notice and it is not addressed to the keeper or the driver or asking for information about the driver. It's as vague as they can be. So the BPA and the DVLA are getting a letter of complaint, for the non-compliance of T&C with the CoP. I plan to ignore T&C until I get a reply from the BPA and DVLA, but is that the right course of action?
By the way, I went to Brent Park this morning and took some photographs. Although there is sign at the entry of the car park, it is placed at a position where drivers have to make a sharp turn to enter the car park and I doubt that many will look away from the road and the oncoming traffic to read the sign at that point. In addition to that, the sign is well away from the point where the cameras are and which I suppose would be the "official" entry to the car park. So it is possible to park before that sign and not see it, as indeed I have seen many drivers park when the car park is too busy.
I have also noticed that it is possible to enter the car park (after that first sign) and park without seeing another sign, which is what I think happened in my case.
I talked to the managers of the two stores that I visited on the day and they both told me that is it an ongoing issue, that all the shopkeepers have argued that the three-hour limit is too short since there are ten (large) shops there etc etc. Not that it made me feel better. One of them said that if it happens again they will take it up on my behalf (why not now, then?).
The second invoice is from Athena ANPR Ltd for overstaying the car park at Lidl Cricklewood, later that day. I'm afraid I cannot find any blatant fault with the wording like in the other one, however their "charge certificate" does look a lot like the PCN I received from Transport for London, down to the payment slip at the bottom of the page. I don't know what to do with this one. I know most of you will advise me to ignore it, but I am worried it will only escalate.
Interestingly, I went to Lidl today and took a photo of the sign (new one, which is why I had no idea of the restriction plus it was dark when I got there so didn't notice it) and the sign appears to be from the supermarket addressing its customers and it says that the "fines" are donated to various charities. I suppose charities like the Athena ANPR Ltd bonus & holiday fund and the Lidl vacation fund I think (not sure!) that before the summer th ecar park was managed by Euro car parks and the first two hours were free, after that you had to pay.
The manager had the usual "it's not run by us" and "I only work here" attitude, showed me leaflets notifying us of the change in the parking arrangements, available to customers in a box next to the EXIT. I pointed out to him that by the time the customers get to the exit the leaflets are pretty useless. Which makes me wonder... Should I send a letter of complaint to the supermarket? After all the sign appears to be from them, so claims that "they do not manage the car park" are exaggerated.
I was thinking that the maximum stay for both car parks is designed to increase the odds of contravening the rules. three hours maximum stay at a shopping centre with ten large shops and restaurants etc? spending half an hour in half of the shops takes you over the limit and at busy times of the year with long queues at the tills...
As for Lidl, the queues are always so long at the tills that you can easily be there for more than 1.5 hours, stuck in the queue.
I'm sorry this message is so long. I woudl appreciate any comments, ideas and encouragement on these issues, as I am a bit unsure that I have made the best decisions.
sophiae
Assuming that they are PPC "tickets", they are unenforceable invoices, so you are right to ignore them, and right to send a complaint to the DVLA.
Someone else will need to advise on what to do with the TFL pcn - their may be wriggle room in the notice wording, signage, or video evidence. You would need to post scans for someone to appraise them (after blocking out any personally identifying details)
Blimey, you went out your way a bit for the private tickets! Write and complain to the supermarket by all means, but just ignore the guff from the parking companies.
For the proper fine, can you scan in your pcn, minus personal details?
Thanks for the replies so far.
Yes, I was an idiot on that day, wasting time at the shops.
I will probably spend some time this weekend writing complaints letters, but I am still worried about ignoring the private parking notices. I have had some really bad experiences with motoring disputes in the past. Plus once I was hit by a diplomatic car, need I say more?
Not enforceable does not mean that it's not a contravention, anyway, isn't it?
Regarding the actual pcn, I called and was told to either pay £10 to be sent the video (with the time to pay the reduced fee running) OR make an appointement to go to Croydon to view it at their office. Which is not very practical. Anyway, I noticed there was a photograph at the back and yes, I am clearly on the bus lane turning left to go to a side street but still, all my wheels are where they shouldn't be, so I'll just pay it and be more careful next time. I am getting worried now, because I went there three or four times since (it's a tile warehouse and we were fixing the bathroom). What if I made the same mistake every time and I end up with three or four fines?
Not enforceable does not mean that it's not a contravention, anyway, isn't it?
Contravention of what? Private car parks are not subject to the provisions of any Road Traffic Acts or Traffic Management Orders, these only apply on public highways or Council operated car parks.
You haven't broken any laws, all you've had are invoices based on a presumed implied contract, and it's up to the PPC to prove i) that you agreed to the contract; ii) that their charges do not constitute a penalty, and iii) that they have not breached the Unfair Terms regulations.
Which is why hardly any of these ever make it to Court. Ignore, ignore, and then ignore some more.
I noticed there was a photograph at the back and yes, I am clearly on the bus lane turning left to go to a side street but still, all my wheels are where they shouldn't be,
Did you need to enter the bus lane to turn left or had you entered it too early?
A bus lane cannot pass straight past a left turn road that you can legally enter as it would effectively close that road to traffic, so I assume the bus lane ended short of the junction. Likewise, there is usually a discretionary allowance of (I think) 15 to 20 yards to enter the bus lane to execute a left turn junction if traffic doesn't make it sensible to wait till you pass the bus lane then turn left. Maybe another expert on bus lanes will clarify when a contravention isn't a contravention in that regard.
I entered the bus lane for the left turn too early
But it's OK, I suppose there's nothing I can do now, just be more careful next time.
Many many thanks for the support, I need it! Now, for the scans...
Here is one of the PCNs (the one that will be sent to the DVLA with a complaint)
<http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2j13pc2&s=4>
And here is the other:
<http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2llzfip&s=4>
As usual, I've removed all identifying information and i would welcome comments.
I entered the bus lane for the left turn too early
But it's OK, I suppose there's nothing I can do now, just be more careful next time.
How too early is too early though? Was it mega early (which could be defined as "driving" in the bus lane and/or queue jumping) or was it perhaps within the guidance of entering the tail end of the bus lane to execute the left turn?
You seem easily resigned to paying the bus lane penalty. Makes me wonder why you bothered posting to be frank!
It was suggested by a member earlier that you show us the pcn - but you haven't - do you want help or not or do you just want someone to say 'oh deary me'?
Sorry if that's harsh but i still fail to get to grips with the lack of constructive focus on this forum that will actually help people overturn various PCNs
(Don't worry Mods. I'll be off as soon as you say so!)
If that bus lane PCN was issued by who I think it may be then you are laughing all the way to the bank! let's just start with 'who was it'? shall we.
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..and that will be such a pleasant change from crying over them for the past couple of weeks won't it Ting.
sorry if i'm being stupid here but i don't actually understand that comment?
i am merely pointing out that if members here got into the habit of getting new posters to get the documents up first, albeit with the restrictions of the forum, then many cases could be resolved or focussed on core issues quickly and people will save their money.
If it is who i think is possible then she has nothing to pay because after a long fight by many people one particular borough is now rolling over when we say 'boo'.
Problem is, more than one boruough covers edware RD. so simple basics like 'who issued the pcn' are also useful as first questions.
Well, as you can see Ting, I uploaded the two PPNs.
As much as I would have liked to spend all my time dealing with this issue, I have a major exam on Thursday and I had to shut shop for the past couple of days to study a bit! Not an easy decision, but I decided that the letters can wait a couple of days while I revise.
I am more worried about the PPNs. A friend told me that he had a similar situation, did nothing and they left him alone after a while, but what if I'm the unlucky one they decide to go after? Especially the second one I posted, from the supermarket, since it seems to be in accordance ot all the guidelines etc etc.
As for the bus lane thing, well, it annoyed me that I received three notices at once. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it at all. After looking at the photos, I decided it's probably not worth contesting. I don't want to travel to Croydon see the tape only to realise I have to pay the fine. I was on the bus lane and I was queue jumping, even though I didn't obstruct or annoy anyone, I got on the bus lane too early because I got fed up being stuck for ages in traffic so close to where I wanted to go. It never crossed my mind I was doing anything wrong or that there were cameras there but that's no defense.
Fiy, it was on Edgware Road northbound at Staples corner, near the roundabout with the North Circular. And it was issued by TfL on behalf of Brent council.
Bad news I'm afraid so i look like a muppet now! LOL
TFL bus lane stuff has only a few errors and possibly difficult to fight. i was thinking specifically of another Borough (Barnet) who also cover part of that road.
You could always get adventurous and check that all the signage and road markings are compliant. TFL claim to have suspended enforcement at 400 locations around London - well they did about two months ago. Like you say - busy with exams - understood.
you are worrying too much about the private ones. highly unlikely they will pursue for long. It's all just a [problem].
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Three tickets in 24 hours
from Transport for London for being on a bus lane on 25/9.
I also considered just paying it all to get it over with, as I have a major exam next week and I need some peace and quiet to do some studying (the extended stays in the shops were a form of procrastination for the exam!).
I think (not sure!) that before the summer th ecar park was managed by Euro car parks and the first two hours were free, after that you had to pay.
Reply With Quote
Re: Three tickets in 24 hours
turning left to go to a side street but still, all my wheels are where they shouldn't be, so I'll just pay it and be more careful next time. I am getting worried now, because I went there three or four times since (it's a tile warehouse and we were fixing the bathroom). What if I made the same mistake every time and I end up with three or four fines?
Originally Posted by sophiae
