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I have received a notice through the door this morning for an unpaid council-issued parking ticket stating "amount now due - £473, we will call again tomorrow etc...", usual stuff.
10 minutes later the bailiff was back with a "Notice of seizure of goods and inventory" notice, which states that they have seized the car (which is parked on the road). Both notices were pushed through the letterbox of the house (not owned by me), each time the bailiff did not knock.
However I have heard that (a) the cannot legally take the car if I need it for work (I'm self-employed) and (b) that there is a limit to what they can charge, and (c) that any statement must be itemised. Is this correct, and if so what can I now do about it?
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Originally Posted by seylectric
I have received a notice through the door this morning for an unpaid council-issued parking ticket stating "amount now due - £473, we will call again tomorrow etc...", usual stuff.
10 minutes later the bailiff was back with a "Notice of seizure of goods and inventory" notice, which states that they have seized the car (which is parked on the road). Both notices were pushed through the letterbox of the house (not owned by me), each time the bailiff did not knock.
However I have heard that (a) the cannot legally take the car if I need it for work (I'm self-employed) and (b) that there is a limit to what they can charge, and (c) that any statement must be itemised. Is this correct, and if so what can I now do about it?
While you are correct about (a), bailiffs often seize first and ask questions later. It's not how they're supposed to operate.
With regards to (b) there are set fees that they can charge for each visit and so on. You should contact the bailiffs and request a breakdown of their charges.
Our bailiff experts should be able to help with that.
I assume this is the first you have heard of this ticket. If it is then you should be able to complete a statutory declaration at your county court and file it with the Traffic Enforcement Centre in Northhampton. You can do got an Stat. Dec. sworn at your local county court for free.
If your Stat Dec is accepted then that should halt bailiff action and return the enforcement activity back to the Notice to Owner stage, at which point you can either pay up or appeal.
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Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Thanks, that's a help. I'm actually going away on holiday next week so I'm basically trying to avoid the car being removed between now and then and not have to pay the £473 fee, plus whatever else they add on for towing it.
Yes, this is the first I've heard - at this stage I have no idea what the ticket was for, I haven't seen one and although I have older unpaid tickets (different car which the bailiffs wouldn't be looking for), this one appears to be for this car (pcn number and vehicle reg it relates to is on the "Notice of seizure" letter). I have (or thought I had) been extremely careful not to get any PCN's on this car.
Incidentally the reverse of the letter includes a "Form of Walking Possession Agreement (Agreement not to remove goods)" which of course I haven't signed, what does this mean? Does this invalidate the Notice of seizure because I haven't signed it?
Re. the second and third points, I'm sure I've read somewhere that there is a limit to what they can charge?
I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice!
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Unbelievable - I have just read that from 1st October it will cost £35 to file an out-of-time statutory declaration, effectively costing you more than the original £30 fine (in my area).
I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice!
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Originally Posted by seylectric
Unbelievable - I have just read that from 1st October it will cost £35 to file an out-of-time statutory declaration, effectively costing you more than the original £30 fine (in my area).
Well, quite, but that won't affect you cos you need to act immediately.
Have you phoned TEC to find out where their previous documents were sent?
Enquired with the Council about previous missing documents? which Council BTW?
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Have tried to phone the TEC in what little spare time I had today (my last day for getting urgent parcels sent out in connection with my business before I go away) and couldn't get through.
The council (Blackpool) said on the phone that the pcn was issued outside my home on 16/01/08 for contravention 15 - "Parked in a residents parking space without clearly displaying a valid residents permit". I've no idea why, as my permit is clearly visible, wardens are up and down the road 3-4 times a week and I would have had many more tickets if my permit, which has never been moved, had not been clearly visible.
As for time, I can't get the Statutory Declaration in until I get home again which will be on 1st October. There's nothing I can do about that.
For the moment I have written to the bailiffs, Phoenix, and told them that I intend to file a Stat Dec and have informed them of my need for the vehicle as i am self-employed, stating that Citizens Advice have informed me that I am entitled to retain the vehicle. I've sent this by Special Delivery, the purpose being that they can not now subsequently claim that they didn't know I was self employed if they do take it which - in theory anyway - should allow me to launch a claim against them if they do. Hopefully of course it will be enough to stop them removing the car in the first place in the future. It won't be at my home address anyway until I return from my holidays, I just need to find somewhere to leave it over the weekend.
For the moment I'm more concerned about the validity of the "Notice of seizure", which also describes the (metallic blue) car as "grey"
Incidentally the "location" on the council's parking tickets usually only show the road, not the town itself - is this acceptable?
I would actually like to find the exact bit of legislation that states the bailiffs can't take the car because I'm self-employed, I've been here before in slightly different circumstances when Welcome finance repossessed a car without a court order and the collection agents (not bailiffs) called the police when I refused to get out of the car, and the police let them take it! (I did win compensation in the end from Welcome)
I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice!
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Originally Posted by seylectric
I would actually like to find the exact bit of legislation that states the bailiffs can't take the car because I'm self-employed,
Me too.
Sorry but I just heard that it's prudent to doubt CAB on some aspects of legal advice. I just can't help thinking that if that were true then all self employed people needing a vehicle for business could just forget all finance payments and parking penalties - er yeah - for how long? - did they say?
You really need to concentrate on not losing the vehicle. I believe there may be extra costs imposed for that as well.
No time to be saying 'can't'. I don't know your situation but are there no days you can get to a CC and a fax before you leave. Get it sorted and in progress and enjoy some piece of mind.
You can argue about 'colour' and 'town' later but neither argument has any validity. The fact that you hold a permit may well do.
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Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Please don't take this the wrong way, I fully appreciate your input but I have heard on several occasions in the past few years that bailiffs cannot remove your vehicle if you need it for work. More specifically I remember a commentator speaking for bailiffs on a radio chat show a couple of years ago during a discussion about parking tickets specifically state that "bailiffs are often reluctant to remove vehicles and only do so as a last resort because they may be removing it illegally if the owner is self-employed and needs it for his work".
pin1onu seems to think so too - "While you are correct about (a), Bailiffs often seize first and ask questions later. It's not how they're supposed to operate."
I'm out of time because I can't get the Stat. Dec sworn until I get home, there's no getting around that. I feel that I've done as much as I can for now.
I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice!
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
The bailiffs could take the vehicle but would depend on several things.
If the vehicle has been specifically modified for the purpose of your trade, the bailiffs can't touch it.
If your trade is a "driving" trade, the vehicle would be exempt if it was the only company vehicle on the books. ie: a self employed taxi driver's car would be exempt but one of several taxi's owned by a cab firm could be seized.
If you use your vehicle to get to and from work and it's not critical to the job itself, the bailiffs can take it. In other words, a vehicle isn't vital for an electrician to perform his job as there are other forms of transport he could use.
Do you have business insurance on the car? If it came to it, it might just help you prove the vehicle is used for work purposes if you have business insurance.
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Many bailiff companies will take the car and argue that you could hire a replacement. John Mc Kenna is correct when he mentions the point about taxi drivers etc.
There was a recent case in the High Court where the Judge WITHOUT HESITATION agreed that a vehicle owned by a builder which was heavily SIGNED was most certainly a "tool of the trade" and therefore exempt from seizure.
Another most important point is that the vehicle has to be: "for your use personally in the course of your business". In other words if the vehicle is used....even occasionally, by a wife/partner etc then it will NOT be exempt from seizure. Therefore BEFORE submitting a copy of your insurance documents you need to ensure that nobody else is listed as being authorised to drive the car.
From October 1st there is indeed a fee of £35 for filing an Out of Time...and even worse...a fee of £75 if the application is rejected and you wish to appeal !!!
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Originally Posted by seylectric
Please don't take this the wrong way, I fully appreciate your input but I have heard on several occasions in the past few years that bailiffs cannot remove your vehicle if you need it for work. More specifically I remember a commentator speaking for bailiffs on a radio chat show a couple of years ago during a discussion about parking tickets specifically state that "bailiffs are often reluctant to remove vehicles and only do so as a last resort because they may be removing it illegally if the owner is self-employed and needs it for his work".
pin1onu seems to think so too - "While you are correct about (a), Bailiffs often seize first and ask questions later. It's not how they're supposed to operate."
I'm out of time because I can't get the Stat. Dec sworn until I get home, there's no getting around that. I feel that I've done as much as I can for now.
No problem at all. I wasn't saying the info was wrong but, just as you had asked, i would like to hear of the relevant legislation. Not an area that I know about so I was only advising caution because it is easier to deal with matters first (noting you are unable) than to have to try to recover your vehicle.
The subsequent post, albeit from a bailliff apparently, again doesn't back up statements with any quote of legislation.
Sorry to go back to basics but if this is actually true, as I said before, then at what point is the debt recovered or can people just keep ignoring and/or cheating forever - unlikely isn't it?
Personally I just feel that whenever people post advice on here they should either be absolutely certain that it is backed up by statute, and preferably quote it, or use phrases like IMO, AFAIK and AIUI.
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Update: I got my Stat Dec sent off yesterday (30th Sept) and will await the results of that. In the meantime I got a letter back from the bailiffs, who have as expected effectively said that they will pursue it unless the council tell them otherwise. In the meantime they have been out again while I was away last week pushing the cost up to £613, and sent me a seperate letter saying I owe £670.
As for the issue of needing the vehicle for my job, I travel all over the country covering around 20,000 miles a year in the course of my job, often having to call in at various locations in various towns on the same day and often coming home with a bootful of items in relation to my work which I could not otherwise carry. I couldn't do this without a car, not a prayer of covering the area I need to cover by train or public transport even if I could carry the stuff, and I certainly couldn't afford to hire or buy another one. Nobody else uses the car, ever.
What disgusts me is the way they completely ignore the rules, pushing open letters through the door (picked up last week by the person looking after my dog while I was away), and claiming extortionate fees for what are, lets face it, minor misdemeanours (so minor that the government decided to decriminalise them!) and giving no indication of why they charge these fees. How can they charge what seems to be £80 + for pushing a note through a door? How we ever got into this state for a civil charge that isn't even classed as a fine is beyond my comprehension.
I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice!
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
You need to keep an eye out for the response from the Traffic Enforcement Centre. The local authority have 19 business days to respond.
If the LA reject your application then it is sent to a "Court Officer" to consider. Many people are of the view that if the LA refuse then this is simpy rubber stamped as rejected by TEC. I cannot comment !!
However there is good new......and bad news.
the good news is that TEC are NO LONGER charging the £35 fee for filing the Out of Time.
The bad news.......is that they are charging £75 for the subsequent N244 Appplication in the event that your application is rejected and you want the application reviewed !!
PS. This amount is PER pcn and took effect from today.
Re: £473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
Yes, am aware of it from the link in pin's earlier post. I'm expecting a rejection to be honest, from a council that seem to automatically reject everything else, though it may buy a little time and if I can make it as difficult as possible - or rather do as much as I can to prevent becoming another victim, willing or otherwise, of what I call the national parking [problem], then I intend to do just that.
I have no intention of being screwed by this bunch of mercenaries if I can help it and will be reporting them in any event for posting "open" letters through the door which have been seen by a third party, as well as giving dates on those letters for their next visit which they have not kept to, which means I've sat around all day waiting for them for nothing. Well that's not going to be at my expense!
I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice!
Only just spotted the fact that the TEC website still refers to a pcn as an "offence"!
"What happens before the penalty charge is registered?
The following stages occur before the charge is registered with TEC:
* A penalty charge notice would have been issued. This should have been paid or appealed against as per instructions given on the notice.
* A Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice would have been sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle (not necessarily the driver at the time of the offence)."
I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice!
£473 charge from bailiffs for one parking ticket?
stating "amount now due - £473, we will call again tomorrow etc...", usual stuff.
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Originally Posted by seylectric
