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Problems with local council and business rates


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So had another letter through from rossendales which reads:

 

Client: ***** ****** Council - National Non Domestic Rates

Outstanding Amount: £2**.**

Reference Number: ************

Our Reference: ********

Date: ** December 2007

 

Dear sir/madam

 

Your debt has been passed to us by the above client, and we intend to recover this debt immediately.

 

You can AVOID this being passed back to our client for consideration to apply for your COMMITTAL to PRISON.

 

It is in your interest to make FULL PAYMENT IMMEDIATELY or contact us on 08456 444 10* (local rate) to make ARRANGEMENTS FOR PAYMENT.

 

CALL NOW 08456 444 10* (local rate)

 

To make immediate payment call our 24 hour automated payment line 0845 078 1194 quoting ********

 

Yours Faithfully

 

Signed

 

Name

Governing Bailiff

 

Now this has been going on over 9 months, i recently contacted the council who have confirmed in writing that my rates are up to date on both accounts i have had with them with nothing owing! (1 account satisfied and closed as i moved out after a short time of being there and the other paid up until april 2008) i can only assume that the amount they are chasing for is their fees, which as i understand it they are only entitled to first and second visit fee's in this case (£42.50 maximum off the top of my head) not over £200 claimed which recently rose to nearly £350 when they started to visit again trying to get payment from me (the above letter now shows the lower of the two again), the only reason that i incurred these costs at all was because the council credited my payment onto the wrong account at the time (i had 2 accounts) which has been argued out with the council who refuse to accept liability there and i have nothing to prove otherwise as payment was made over the phone, where do i stand on this one? can they have me imprisoned over their fees (which i would class as unlawful) or is it a last ditch attempt to get some money out of me knowing everything else has failed, also where do they stand claiming that the money owed is for NNDR when infact it is made up entirely of their fees, i suspect a well worded letter sent to them by recorded delivery would be a good idea just to try and bring the matter to a close, thoughts please

 

 

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I'll soon be in the same position as you (hopefully) and was wondering if this part of the Council Tax Regs 1992 is relevant.

 

45 (3)

If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

 

Only the debt to the Authority is mentioned here, not the collection agent or bailiff; so it looks to me as if the moment you cleared the debt with the council the bailiffs no longer had any right to use their court collection status, and are reduced to the rank of Unsecured Creditor.

 

Maybe those more knowlegeable will have a view.

 

I hope they agree with me

 

Hope it helps,

 

Chris.

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I'll soon be in the same position as you (hopefully) and was wondering if this part of the Council Tax Regs 1992 is relevant.

 

45 (3)

If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

 

Only the debt to the Authority is mentioned here, not the collection agent or bailiff; so it looks to me as if the moment you cleared the debt with the council the bailiffs no longer had any right to use their court collection status, and are reduced to the rank of Unsecured Creditor.

 

Maybe those more knowlegeable will have a view.

 

I hope they agree with me

 

Hope it helps,

 

Chris.

 

I think this depends on how you intemperate it and suspect that the bailiffs fees would be classed as part of it, but hopefully tomtubby will be able to confirm this either way

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Hi, if you read the other posts you'll see that what I said is right.

 

Once the liability order is satisfied/paid in full then the Bailiffs fees are a separate matter, in fact they are supposed to forward any money they receive to the council and THEN take their fees. Of course they don't.

But that gives me just enough justification to pay the council direct because that's what they've done to me.

 

Of course the bailiffs will swear on anything you want that this isn't so, and you may even hear a council tax worker agree with them.

But that won't be the first time they will have said something "innaccurate" to try to persuade a debtor/victim to shut up and pay.

 

That's what I'll be doing and if like me you have found the Bailiff charges to be incorrect, then you would be inviting them to sue you in the small claims court. Then they'd have to justify their fees and you'll see I've already published the letter disputing their charges in my own post.

 

Somehow I don't see them doing that.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Chris.

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I am so sorry, I thought that I had responded to you long ago.

 

I have Mr R as being certificated to work for Rossendales but I can find no trace of Mr K.

 

As the vast majority of Rossendales bailiff's are certificated at Burnley County Court I would advise that you call them on Monday and ask if they can search their records.

 

Burnleys number is: 01282 416899

 

If you can let me know tomorrow, I can respond further.

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Thanks for looking, dont you meen Mr F rather than Mr R though :confused: wouldnt surprise me if Mr K isnt certified, got the impression he could be a glorified delivery boy :rolleyes:

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BORO

 

Could you please disregard my previous post. I was looking at the wrong year's register.

 

The CORRECT detailes are as follows:

 

Mr K is certificated to work for Rossendales. It would appear that his first certificate was granted in July 2007.

 

Mr F is also certificated to work for Rossendales. His original certificate was granted in May 2005 and he renewed this certificate on 24th May 2007.

 

Sorry for the previous error.

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Oh well, how would you advise i deal with the above? given that the non domestic rates are fully satisfied with the council (as above have that in statement form) can they realy approach the council for approval to send me to prison over their fees or is it a threat be it an empty one, i would be rather interested to see them explain their fees infront of a judge when questioned how they are accrued

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Excuse me for butting in, but as I understand it,the threat of committal to prison is for deliberate non-payment of tax.

 

Well you've paid the tax.

 

That means that the bailiffs fees must become nothing more than an unsecured debt, which they would have to pursue in the county court.

 

That's how I see it, unless I'm mistaken. In which case will someone please put me right, cos I'm shortly going to be doing exactly the same thing.

 

Chris

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The bailiff company are agents of the local authority. They can enforce a liability order. They CANNOT recommend commital proceedings. Nice idea....but a hollow threat.

 

Commital proceedings are VERY RARE INDEED and in order for this to even be considered by a Judge, there must be proof that the reason for non-payment was either WILLFUL REFUSAL or CULPABLE NEGLECT.

 

Neither of these apply to your case.

 

If the bailiff wishes to pursue you for his fees then he must first gain permission from the local authority. Next he would need to provide PROOF that his fees are correct and that visits were made. Finally, he would need to pursue you in the County Court. Although this option is available......I personally have never heard of it happening.

 

I hope that this reply puts your mind at rest.

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Thanks tomtubby it certainly does, i shall choose to ignore ross from now on in which case, if it did come to court i would certainly fight as the whole thing started from a council cock up, needless to say i have all paperwork safely filed away which would make rather interesting reading for any judge!

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And now a bright yellow card has come through the post wanting me to call a "person", on reading the tiny print it relates to this matter, and is from RCL, after a little research it would appear that they are part of rossendales so i can only assume that the bailiffs have had enough and are leaving it to their collection team to deal with now, has anyone else experienced this from them?

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  • 2 months later...

Well since my last post i have heard no more, lets hope this ones finally over, nearly a year since it all started now, i didnt think that ross would like to explain their fees in front of a judge funny that :rolleyes:

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  • 5 months later...

I have received a letter from the local council concerning business rates, they state that there is a balance owing on the account (circa £50) it goes on to say that (anything in red edited by me) "As you are aware, on DATE the council obtained a liability order from MAGISTRATES COURT for payment of non domestic rates. This order gives the council the power to collect payment in a number of ways, which includes the removal of goods by the use of a bailiff.

 

I would ask that you contact the council within the next 14 days with your proposals as to how you intend to clear the debt, if you have not already done so. If no arrangement is made or payment received to clear the liability order, details of the arrears will be passed to the councils bailiffs."

 

Then it goes on to say about bailiff "fees"

 

Heres the thing i paid my business rates in full nearly 3 weeks before the date on there letter, i have had nothing through from the court about any liability order or that it was even going to the court! also as i paid in full i dont have a clue what this amount they are claiming is for :confused: some advice please on how to deal with this?

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If it was me, I would dig out my receipt / proof of the payment you made, photocopy it and send it to the council, with a letter explainging that your account is up to date and you need them to check their figures. You could also mention that you have received no notification of any court proceedings and you would like copies of the relevant documents. FWIW I would give them a deadline to reply, say, 14 days.

 

Send by recorded delivery and see what they come back with. If you issue a deadline, follow it up.

 

Then, call the Magistrates Court in your letter and ask for the details - dates, amounts, etc. Confirm which address the paperwork was sent to.

 

Make sure you keep all documents / copies to hand so that if a bailiff appears you can show him that the account is in dispute.

 

Good luck

Edited by KJD
Mis-read the original post re court
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Quick question on business rates, if a person is renting a building but using it for personal use and not for business use (or making money) is there any exemption available for business rates making them not payable :confused: just asking as i rent a small unit (glorified shed really) but use it to store stuff, nothing to do with a business or making money just like having a garage or shed at home, just a bit mift at the amount of cash going to the council for nothing...... cheers guys!

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But is there any such thing as an exemption under these circumstances or is it at the councils discretion, thing is i would rather know before i talk to the council as they are bound to say there is no exemption even if there is

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It's not actually set on a 'business' premises but on non domestic premises.

 

You wil probably be able to get a 50% reduction on the amount you have to pay, but if it is a 'shed' as you say, the ratable value may be set higher than the building is actually worth.

 

You can find the rateable value of your building by doing a search on the VOA website.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Whilst the 'shed' is in the non-domestic rating list, you would be liable for busienss rates unless the VOA agree to remove it from the list as it is no longer capable of business use.

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This reply may be too late to help, but it sounds like the letter is a cost letter. The council will no doubt say that by the time you made your payment, the summons had already been issued therefore incurring you costs. I would ring (you probably already have) and appeal to their sense of discretion to withdraw the costs.

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  • 7 months later...

I have received a final notice for none domestic rates, it says:

 

You have previously been sent a reminder to pay your non-domestic rates, which is due in respect of the year(s) stated below.

 

Your right to pay by instalments has now been lost and the whole balance of £xxx for the period is due in one payment.

 

Unless full payment of £xxx is received during the next seven days the magistrates court will be asked to issue a summons against you to commence legal proceedings for the recovery of the non domestic rates due, and you will have to pay any legal costs involved.

 

 

Now to my point, i have not had a previous reminder, my rates are behind as far in as i havent paid this months yet but am up to date otherwise, if i make the payment for the may rates online what is my best course of action as far as their reminder is concerned, i cannot afford to to the year in full and neither am i prepared to when i rent on a monthly basis, the local council are useless and i know i will get know where on the phone, or they will go back on it so it needs to be done in writing so that i can use whatever i send them to defend myself if need be

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You should phone them as it is the quickest way to solve it. Explain the situation and ask why the letter.

If they agree that you can continue with the payment monthly, ask them if they have noted it on your record, and ask them to read back to you what they have written, then ask for confirmation in writing.

 

If you can record the phone call at all, then all the better.

 

_________________________ ___________________

 

If my posting has been of any assistance - please tip my scales.

_________________________ ___________________

 

Foreign Aid - taxing poor people in rich countries for the benefit of rich people in poor countries.

_________________________ ___________________

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