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PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Hi,
Hope some of you experienced people will be able to help me.
I've just received a pcn from the Richmond Council in the post, with the Civil enforcement officer being a CCTV camera outside St Margarets station. (I've read another two threads on here today about tickets from this same zealous camera)
I've been issued with 23J - Parking in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle (camera enforcement)
The camera observed my vehicle between 14.02 and 14.05 on 16/8.
The area is a marked loading bay with white painted signage on the ground and a either a double or single yellow line (it's so faded and repainted - it's difficult to tell)
There is a sign which reads Loading Only Bay, followed by (\) Mon-Sat 8 - 9:30 4-6:30pm, then No loading Mon- Sat 8-9:30am 4-6:30pm and then a pic in blue and white of a person with "goods" and then Goods Vehicles Loading Only, Mon - Sat 9:30- 4pm 1 hour No return within 1 hour
I was in the loading bay around 2pm during the Goods Vehicles Loading Only time, I have a normal car, like almost all registered as a PLG, and wonder if that should count? I was in the loading bay - at first to wait for my "goods" to arrive (unfortunately running late by 3 or 4 minutes) and then to load them into the car. My "goods" were a large cello in it's case (the size of a ten year old or so) and two other musical instruments and accessories. As well, three passengers were joining me in the car (they had been carrying these instruments) and I was taking them and myself to our place of business. I was most definately there only on business, and wonder if I am able to fight this pcn on the basis that my car is a goods vehicle of sorts and that I was there collecting both goods and passengers for business?
If I had been purposely trying to commit a "crime" I would think it was fair enough, but I thought that it was within the law to load and pick up people in a loading bay. Can anyone help please?
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by candidsylvie
Hi,
Hope some of you experienced people will be able to help me.
I've just received a pcn from the Richmond Council in the post, with the Civil enforcement officer being a CCTV camera outside St Margarets station. (I've read another two threads on here today about tickets from this same zealous camera)
I've been issued with 23J - Parking in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle (camera enforcement)
The camera observed my vehicle between 14.02 and 14.05 on 16/8.
The area is a marked loading bay with white painted signage on the ground and a either a double or single yellow line (it's so faded and repainted - it's difficult to tell)
There is a sign which reads Loading Only Bay, followed by (\) Mon-Sat 8 - 9:30 4-6:30pm, then No loading Mon- Sat 8-9:30am 4-6:30pm and then a pic in blue and white of a person with "goods" and then Goods Vehicles Loading Only, Mon - Sat 9:30- 4pm 1 hour No return within 1 hour
I was in the loading bay around 2pm during the Goods Vehicles Loading Only time, I have a normal car, like almost all registered as a PLG, and wonder if that should count? I was in the loading bay - at first to wait for my "goods" to arrive (unfortunately running late by 3 or 4 minutes) and then to load them into the car. My "goods" were a large cello in it's case (the size of a ten year old or so) and two other musical instruments and accessories. As well, three passengers were joining me in the car (they had been carrying these instruments) and I was taking them and myself to our place of business. I was most definately there only on business, and wonder if I am able to fight this pcn on the basis that my car is a goods vehicle of sorts and that I was there collecting both goods and passengers for business?
If I had been purposely trying to commit a "crime" I would think it was fair enough, but I thought that it was within the law to load and pick up people in a loading bay. Can anyone help please?
Unfortunately mate some of these bays are restricted to goods vehicles only, yours obiously isnt a goods vehicle. However in the tradition of CAG we will have a good pop at a possible technical out if you wish to scan uop any photos or the ticket suitably washed of your details.
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Hi again,
I'll get a photo of the sign over the weekend, but it says just what I've written -particularly the "goods vehicles loading only", but not specifying whether or not just heavy goods. I've now read about TROs on this website/forum and wonder if I should be looking at the specific TRO for that loading bay. Is that how it works - I write and ask them to send a paper copy of the TRO for that loading bay?
I've scanned the ticket (all 4 pages) but have yet to work out how to upload pdfs/pictures etc. I'll hopefully get it up late tonight
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
A van
A 5 door car
An estate car
An hatchback, etc, but not a saloon car are classed as goods vehicles and are built for the purpose of loading goods into them, if the sign states goods vehicles then you should not have to pay the penalty charge however if the sign states Heavy goods then that is different and would be difficult to to get out of, so try to find something else wrong for e.g the TRO the signing or the lining of the bay, what type of car do you have. Can you get some pics of the signage on here any pics of upright signs and carraigeway signing also the yellow lines in the bay and the lining of the bay.
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by adampaddam
A van
A 5 door car
An estate car
An hatchback, etc, but not a saloon car are classed as goods vehicles and are built for the purpose of loading goods into them, if the sign states goods vehicles then you should not have to pay the penalty charge however if the sign states Heavy goods then that is different and would be difficult to to get out of, so try to find something else wrong for e.g the TRO the signing or the lining of the bay, what type of car do you have. Can you get some pics of the signage on here any pics of upright signs and carraigeway signing also the yellow lines in the bay and the lining of the bay.
Hmmm.
Wanna point me at the relative legislation you're quoting there?
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Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by Ting
Sylvie, I'm guessing this is outside the Tesco in St Margerets CPZ - yes?
You should post up the pcn. I've seen two so far and both are invalid with a Patas case confirming so for similar circumstances.
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Yes it is the Loading Bay outside Tesco, just down from the station. I'll try and take photos and upload them on Sunday
I'm having trouble uploading the copy of the PCN, will keep trying, but it looks the same as one other posters from the same Loading Bay CCTV camera that I saw on here yesterday (and can't find now)
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by adampaddam
A van
A 5 door car
An estate car
An hatchback, etc, but not a saloon car are classed as goods vehicles and are built for the purpose of loading goods into them, if the sign states goods vehicles then you should not have to pay the penalty charge however if the sign states Heavy goods then that is different and would be difficult to to get out of, so try to find something else wrong for e.g the TRO the signing or the lining of the bay, what type of car do you have. Can you get some pics of the signage on here any pics of upright signs and carraigeway signing also the yellow lines in the bay and the lining of the bay.
Not sure where you found a definition of 'goods vehicle' that excludes saloon cars?? If you take the taxation class all cars are 'private light goods', the most commonly used definition is a 'vehicle contructed or adapted for the carriage of goods' which would include any vehicle that fits the description, even a pizza hut moped would classify as a goods vehicle. I would hazard a guess the TRO states something similar and that the vehicle is being used for the carriage of goods.
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by green_and_mean
Not sure where you found a definition of 'goods vehicle' that excludes saloon cars?? If you take the taxation class all cars are 'private light goods', the most commonly used definition is a 'vehicle contructed or adapted for the carriage of goods' which would include any vehicle that fits the description, even a pizza hut moped would classify as a goods vehicle. I would hazard a guess the TRO states something similar and that the vehicle is being used for the carriage of goods.
I think he was using a finding in a recent NPAS adjudication in Warrington -v- Hart District Council ( case No. HT 05035K) where the adjudicator defined a saloon car as a passenger vehicle and other vehicles as goods vehicles.
Also the taxation class is actually Private/ Light Goods implying Private or Light Goods imho (see form v149-Rates of Vehicle Excise Duty)
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by Adenuff
I think he was using a finding in a recent NPAS adjudication in Warrington -v- Hart District Council ( case No. HT 05035K) where the adjudicator defined a saloon car as a passenger vehicle and other vehicles as goods vehicles.
Also the taxation class is actually Private/ Light Goods implying Private or Light Goods imho (see form v149-Rates of Vehicle Excise Duty)
Not seen the case but totally stupid judgement in my opinion how can you define a car in such a vague way? Cars these days are so varied in design its impossible to differentiate between saloon cars, hatch backs, estates and people carriers.
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by green_and_mean
Not seen the case but totally stupid judgement in my opinion how can you define a car in such a vague way? Cars these days are so varied in design its impossible to differentiate between saloon cars, hatch backs, estates and people carriers.
A good example being the Nissan Serena, a people carrier which was based on a van.
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by Ting
Sylvie, just give me all the dates quoted on the pcn (ALL )
They are wrong. then I can explain.
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I will get the scans of the pcn up, but for now.....
Page 1 - Date of Notice -27/08/08
Date of contravention - 16/08/08
The penalty charge is £100 The penalty must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this penalty charge notice was served (26/09/08) this is actually 31 days :? A reduced charge of £50 is payable in the following circumstances: If the penalty charge is paid not later than last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which this notice was served (19/09/08) the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%
At the very bottom of all the pages in small print it has the Contravention Date - 16/08/2008 Date of Notice 27/08/2008
Page 2 -
Under How and Where to Pay
By Post - Payments must be received by the council or its' agents by 19/09/2008 in order to qualify for the discounted amount, or 26/09/2008 to prevent recovery action
On the Payment Slip
It has
Date of contravention 16/08/2008
Date of service of notice 29/08/2008
The full penalty charge is £100.00. A reduced charge of £50.00 is payable if paid not later than the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which the PCN was served, ie. 19/09/2008
Page 3 - in box that has name and address etc It has Date of Contravention 16/08/2008
Will get the scan and pictures of loading bay and signage up soon.
Thanks so much to everyone for their help and input.
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Also, if it makes any difference, I have a 3 door hatchback which I was loading.
I forgot to say that in addition to loading the three colleague passengers, cello, two other musical instruments and accessories, we also loaded a suitcase full of papers that we were about to use in our business - (sheet music)
Re: PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
Originally Posted by candidsylvie
I will get the scans of the pcn up, but for now.....
Page 1 - Date of Notice -27/08/08
Date of contravention - 16/08/08
The penalty charge is £100 The penalty must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this penalty charge notice was served (26/09/08) this is actually 31 days :?
A reduced charge of £50 is payable in the following circumstances: If the penalty charge is paid not later than last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which this notice was served (19/09/08) the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%
At the very bottom of all the pages in small print it has the Contravention Date - 16/08/2008 Date of Notice 27/08/2008
Page 2 -
Under How and Where to Pay
By Post - Payments must be received by the council or its' agents by 19/09/2008 in order to qualify for the discounted amount, or 26/09/2008 to prevent recovery action
On the Payment Slip
It has
Date of contravention 16/08/2008
Date of service of notice 29/08/2008
The full penalty charge is £100.00. A reduced charge of £50.00 is payable if paid not later than the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which the PCN was served, ie. 19/09/2008
Page 3 - in box that has name and address etc It has Date of Contravention 16/08/2008
Will get the scan and pictures of loading bay and signage up soon.
Thanks so much to everyone for their help and input.
Happy days Sylvie! Same as the others I've seen.
1/. Whilst they might assume a date of service it is unfair of them to say so unless they make it clear that you may refute it. They cannot possibly know when it was delivered. No specific statute but easily arguable as common sense.
2/. Their biggest mistake is to put an 'assumed' date of service on the payment slip. Then they work from that and get their arithmetic wrong Doh!
26/9/09 equates to 29 days beginning on date of service. this does not comply with statute. I'll explain why in a minute.
Similarly they quote the 21 days as 22.
1/. above is useful but 2/. is your winner. More in a mo.
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PCN 23! Loading bay charge for not being "that class of vehicle" Help please
from the Richmond Council in the post, with the Civil enforcement officer
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Originally Posted by candidsylvie
