PCN Issued as Resident Parking Permit Expired

**Stuart0710** · 22nd August 2008 20:02

Hi

Received a penalty notice from Havering Council for a pcn icon

issued due to Resident Parking Permit having expired.

So the permit having expired I accept is my fault (although it's not something I tend to look at every day!) but there was never a PCN attached to the car.

I have contacted Havering Council about this and have just received their reply which includes pictures of my car WITHOUT a ticket on it? Their letter says

"...The liability of the owner remains even if the PCN is subsequently removed by, for example, the weather or an unauthorised person..."

If their own pictures don't show the ticket attached to the car do I have a case for having the PCN cancelled?

Thanks for any help in advanced

Stuart

Similar Threads:

**Conniff** · 22nd August 2008 20:12

Does it show a provable date the picture was taken?

**green_and_mean** · 22nd August 2008 20:25

There is no requirement for the car to be photographed with the pcn icon

on it, the photo is primarily intended as proof of contravention not service, the PCN can legally be handed to the driver in which case the driver is unlikely to pose for a photo receiving the PCN.
If you take the matter to adjudication the case will be decided on the balance of probability of it being served which is without any evidence to the contary likely to go in the Councils favor.

**nero12** · 22nd August 2008 22:14

Originally Posted by green_and_mean

There is no requirement for the car to be photographed with the pcn icon

on it, the photo is primarily intended as proof of contravention not service, the PCN can legally be handed to the driver in which case the driver is unlikely to pose for a photo receiving the PCN.
If you take the matter to adjudication the case will be decided on the balance of probability of it being served which is without any evidence to the contary likely to go in the Councils favor.

If the attendant claims to have put the ticket opn the vehicle then write and ask for the confirmation of tax disk details from the vehicle and poket book entries detailing the issue of the pcn and the circumstances surrounding.

**lamma** · 22nd August 2008 22:24

council systems can obtain in tax disk numbers from the VRM (via DVLA) ...

ghost tickets are a well own problem (see the Annual reports). not always a slam dunk for the council.

**green_and_mean** · 22nd August 2008 22:53

Originally Posted by Stuart0710

So the permit having expired I accept is my fault (although it's not something I tend to look at every day!) but there was never a pcn icon

attached to the car.

Just for arguments sake how do you know there was NEVER a PCN attached to the car if you were not there when it was issued/served?

**lamma** · 22nd August 2008 23:02

Just for arguments sake how does anyone on this board know that a pcn icon

was attached. None of us were there.

**green_and_mean** · 22nd August 2008 23:08

Originally Posted by lamma

Just for arguments sake how does anyone on this board know that a pcn icon

was attached. None of us were there.

No one has stated one was attatched but the OP clearly stated one was never attatched I was just asking as the Adjudicator would on what grounds this statement is being made. Surely the only person who would actually know would be the CEO?

**crem** · 22nd August 2008 23:12

Originally Posted by green_and_mean

No one has stated one was attatched but the OP clearly stated one was never attatched I was just asking as the Adjudicator would on what grounds this statement is being made. Surely the only person who would actually know would be the CEO?

Surely a reasonable question for the adjudicator to also ask would be "why did the CEO take a picture of the car as evidence of the offence, but not do so with the pcn icon

attached?"

**pin1onu** · 23rd August 2008 02:01

Originally Posted by crem

Surely a reasonable question for the adjudicator to also ask would be "why did the CEO take a picture of the car as evidence of the offence, but not do so with the pcn icon

attached?"

Another reasonable question would be if they had time to take a photo surely they should have had time to obtain the tax disc number as per the guidance issued by the DfT?

**green_and_mean** · 23rd August 2008 19:13

Just as reasonable would be to ask why he would issue a pcn icon

take a photo of the car and then not bother sticking the PCN on the window?

**lamma** · 23rd August 2008 20:24

thats easy - it is one of the well known tricks used. would you like me to publish a list ?

better question is why the CEO took a picture that does not show service of the pcn icon

- against the guidance. either a fiiddle or the CEO is a twonk (or both)

**green_and_mean** · 23rd August 2008 21:20

Originally Posted by lamma

thats easy - it is one of the well known tricks used. would you like me to publish a list ?

Trick?? A trick usually has a point, considering the car had no valid permit, no driver and was parked long enough to be observed and photos taken how does the trick work?

**lamma** · 23rd August 2008 21:31

better question is why the CEO took a picture that does not show service of the pcn icon

- against the guidance. either a fiiddle or the CEO is a twonk (or both)

**John McKenna** · 24th August 2008 10:22

Originally Posted by Stuart0710

Hi

So the permit having expired I accept is my fault (although it's not something I tend to look at every day!)

I'd pay the ticket immediately before it increases.

**crem** · 24th August 2008 11:13

Originally Posted by John McKenna

I'd pay the ticket immediately before it increases.

Even if it transpires that the ticket was not correctly issued (and therefore would not be enforceable) which other people here are trying to help establish?

**Stuart0710** · 25th August 2008 11:24

Ok, so....

Originally Posted by John McKenna

I'd pay the ticket immediately before it increases.

This is my issue, it has already increased as the first I knew I had to pay was the notice saying that £100 was now payable

Originally Posted by green_and_mean

Just for arguments sake how do you know there was NEVER a pcn icon

attached to the car if you were not there when it was issued/served?

So I'm guilty of using bad grammar, I never found a PCN on the car. And the pictures don't show one on the car

If nothing else sould I be entitled to only pay the discounted

£50?

Stuart

**green_and_mean** · 25th August 2008 13:04

Most Councils will accept an offer of the lower amount if you say the pcn icon

had been removed rather than drag it out in the hope of getting an extra 50 quid. I wasn't being rude just playing devils advocate since as I pointed out only the CEO knows the actual truth about serving the PCN both you and the Council have to rely on his testimony and honesty. They may have more photos or the CEO may have simply forgot to take the PCN photo as its not a legal requirement. In some respects it is actually better practice to take photos without the PCN on screen as it could be used to obscure a permit or PD ticket. If the Council turns down an informal appeal personally I'd try and pay the lower rate rather than go to adjudication on the basis there is no photo of a served PCN.

**lamma** · 25th August 2008 13:33

phantom tickets are a known problem. see the annual reports.
OP should ask the LA to suspend while the provide a true copy of the pcn icon

.

Ting · 29th August 2008 03:59

Stuart. Can you get pics of the resident bay (wide angle) and signage so both can be checked for compliance.
-
Scan of pcn icon

(all) if you get it - and the NtO.
-

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