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My OH has been in battle for some time with CapOne about mis-sold PPI;
1. Self employed
2. Pre-Existing condition...back related
The following was the last letter that was sent to CapOne:
Dear Ms. Renshaw,
Re: Account XXXXXXXXXX
I am in receipt of a letter dated 03 July 2008, from: Mr. Karl W Johnson of your office, this letter is in response to my letter to you dated 26 June 2008.
[quote] by Mr. Johnson: “In your letter, you’ve mentioned Capital One was fined by the FSA for failing to treat customers fairly when selling PPI. Some customers who purchased PPI between January 2005 and August 2006 weren’t sent full terms and conditions”. Factually in the FSA ruling against Capital One on 15 February 2007 the FSA found that between 14 January 2005 and 05 April 2006 Capital One breached the FSA terms in that the bank was:
1. failing to take reasonable care to organize and control its affairs responsibly and effectively, with adequate risk management systems (Principle 3); and
2. failing to pay due regard to the interests of its customers and failing to treat them fairly (Principle 6).
• The FSA’s findings under Para 2.3 (4) of the Final Notice dated 15 February 2007: The Firm failed to provide customers who purchased PPI other than by telephone with the policy documents prior to the conclusion of the contract. The FSA also considered that it was practical for you to have done this and found as such in para 4.23 of the Final Notice:
• “To the extent that these contracts were concluded by post, the FSA considers the means of communication did enable the provision of the full policy terms and conditions in a durable medium prior to the conclusion of the contract. Capital One did not provide the full policy terms and conditions prior to the conclusion of the contract. The policy document was provided immediately after the conclusion of the contract as part of the pack which included the delivery of the credit card”
My decision to purchase PPI was made against the information I was given at the point of sale, when I ticked a box, I now know that this information was incomplete as I was not provided with a full insurance policy.
Mr. Johnson goes on to recommend that: “if I remain dissatisfied you still have the option of referring your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service (fos). Unfortunately, as you must know this matter is not within the remit of that Service.
I would remind you of the ‘New Banking Code’ that Capital One has signed up to: 2. “The Fairness Commitment”. I would also remind you of; “The General Insurance Standards Code 2000/2001” (GISC) which Capital One subscribed to:
1. Our Commitments
2. Marketing
3. Helping you find the insurance to meet your needs.
3.1 Explaining our service
3.2 Matching your requirements
3.3 Information.
I am convinced that I was mis-sold the PPI for the following reasons and if you cannot deal with this matter, then I insist that the matter be escalated to a more senior member of Capital One Bank (Europe) plc.
• Responsibilities When Underwriting a Policy of Insurance; Capital One and their chosen insurer/underwriter failed to check my personal circumstances at the time of the sale which they are under obligation to do when underwriting a Policy of Insurance. If they had done so, they would have realised that the PPI policy was useless to me. At no time was any attempt made to ascertain of the product provided was fit for purpose, suitable for my needs. Emphasis should be placed upon the fact, that at this point in time General Insurance was unregulated
• Alternative Insurance Cover: Capital One Bank failed to provide me with a full insurance policy prior to taking said insurance. Furthermore Capital One failed to ask me if I had any alternative arrangements for insurance cover, In fact I was asked nothing, Capital One Bank queried nothing even though I made it clear that I was self employed and I was totally unaware that I could have shopped around for other more suitable and cheaper insurance. Basically, it was Capital One Bank’s insurance product or none! Furthermore the underwriter should have ascertained my position to assess whether such a product was suitable. If any assessment had taken place it should have been considered wholly unnecessary and unworthwhile “GISC 3.2. We will make sure as far as possible that the products and services we offer you will match your requirements; if we cannot match your requirements we will explain the differences in the product or service we can offer.” The Association of British Insurers (ABI) General Insurance Code of Practice also placed emphasis upon: “It shall be an overriding obligation of an intermediary at all times to conduct business with utmost good faith and integrity.”`
• Failure to Supply Important Information with Regard to Significant Policy Exclusions: I was most definitely not informed, made aware of in clear intelligible language that, the PPI would contain certain exclusions which could affect my ability to claim on the Insurance if I should need to. Additionally I was never asked about, or told that Pre Existing Medical Conditions could invalidate my policy and I was never asked if I had any Pre Existing Medical Conditions. One of the exclusions in PPI policies includes back injury/back ache; a condition that I have suffered from since 1968/9 and this is clearly recorded on my doctor’s medical record notes. Another exclusion that could have invalidated any claim was the fact that, I was self employed at the point of sale; Neither Capital One Bank or their chosen insurer did not make me aware of the exclusions that relate to self employed applicants that could invalidate a claim. The cleverly written Capital One ‘what’s in your wallet’ leaflet and summary of cover (undated issue) that you have recently supplied to me is not a copy of the full policy, it is a brief summary of cover. However, it should be noted that the summary is full of; ‘Waffle & Jargon’, difficult to understand by a member of the public with no understanding of contract law and at a time, 2000, when PPI was not understood by vulnerable applicants, who thought that they were buying alleged ‘Peace of Mind’, when in fact and in my case, they were not covered by your very expensive insurance. This has only become apparent to me after the recent coverage in the media and following the recent ‘Which? Magazine’, CAB Super Complaint, OFT, FSA investigations regarding the mis-selling of PPI by finance companies.
• Widespread PPI Mis-selling – Employee Bonuses: I understand that some employees are paid higher bonuses if they get prospective creditors to take out PPI with loans and credit cards. How can the best interests of the customer possibly be met, it there is clear conflict of interest between your responsibilities to me, and the drive of your employees to sell Payment Protection Insurance, whether it is suitable or not in order to receive bonuses?
• Unfair attachment of PPI with no competition involved: I now believe that PPI policies attached to credit card and loan accounts were both extremely unfair, totally unreasonable and your PP offered me very little, if any protection value whatsoever. Furthermore I believe in the light of the preliminary findings by the Competition Commission that the PPI was unfairly attached as there was no opportunity for me to seek competitive insurance: [quote] “Consumers who buy PPI are being overcharged by £1.4bn a year.” I am therefore again requesting a full refund of all premiums that have been paid, and the interest that has been added to these premiums.
Furthermore, as I believe that I have been unlawfully deprived of this money, I also expect the repayment of the interest of this money at the Statutory Interest Rate of 8%, starting when I issue my county court Claim against Capital One Bank (Europe) plc.
You have already been supplied with the details of my claim. However, for the avoidance of doubt, I request a refund of £4,330.02, a proportion of which relates to a number of ‘Unlawful Penalty Charges.
Because I am mindful of pre-action court protocol, I would ask you to settle my claim, in order that any protracted litigation and possible waste of the courts time can be avoided.
If I do not hear from you, I will have not other alternative than to issue court proceedings against Capital One Bank (Europe) Limited and Robinson Way & Company Limited, for the recovery of this money.
"I refer to your letter of 24 July about your payment protection insurance (PPI). I am writing to you out of courtesy as we have already issued our final response to this matter.
As we've previously explained, PPI was added to your account as you had asked for the cover when you applied. We added PPI to your account as you satisfied the eligibility critereia. You have again referred to a fine Capital One incurred in February 2007 but this has no relevance to your complaint as this did not affect the sale of PPI to your account.
Although you were not provided with the full terms and conditions when you applied for the credit card, You did have a PPI summary so you were aware of the main benefits and exclusions of the cover. A copy of which was included with our previous letter. You also had a 30 day cooling off period to cancel without charge if you then decided that you did not want to take out protection for your credit card.
We correctly added PPI to your account from your instruction and therefore will not refund any of the premiums as you have requested"
[Quote] by Capital One:
"Although you were not provided with the full terms and conditions when you applied for the credit card, You did have a PPI summary so you were aware of the main benefits and exclusions of the cover."
Re: The above post, here is an extract taken from the FSA site circa 2005 - 2007:
The Financial Services Authority has today fined Capital One Bank (Europe) Plc (Capital One) £175,000 for failing to have adequate systems and controls for selling Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) insurance and for failing to treat its customers fairly.
[Emphasis]From January 2005 to April 2006, Capital One failed to ensure that 50,000 customers received important information about the policy including all exclusions although they did receive a policy summary.
[Quote] by Capital One:
"You have again referred to a fine Capital One incurred in February 2007 but this has no relevance to your complaint as this did not affect the sale of PPI to your account."
Err?
So what is it that Capital One are saying here?
That it was okay to con & mislead me in 2000, which was prior to the point in 2005, when the FSA took over the regulating of General Insurance ; PPI from the GISC and that you were perfectly entitled to mislead me into ticking a secondary box on an aplication form for PPI without providing me with a copy of the full insurance policy?
My decision to purchase PPI was made against the information I was given at the point of sale, when I ticked a box, I now know that this information was incomplete as I was not provided with a full insurance policy.
I would not have said this but all is not lost.
Was this advised or non adivsed?
Emphasis should be placed upon the fact, that at this point in time General Insurance was unregulated
I think insurance was regulated but just under different rules ICOB I believe someone correct me if I am wrong but I am most sure of this.
We added PPI to your account as you satisfied the eligibility critereia.
OH NO they did not you had a pre exsiting medical condition.
Did you send them proof of this i.e. a doctors letter containg diagnosois and time of diagnosis, also did you send them proof you were self employed,also have you checked the T&Cs to see if self employed was covered?
Err?
So what is it that Capital One are saying here?
That it was okay to con & mislead me in 2000, which was prior to the point in 2005, when the FSA took over the regulating of General Insurance ; PPI from the GISC and that you were perfectly entitled to mislead me into ticking a secondary box on an aplication form for PPI without providing me with a copy of the full insurance policy?
They would have diffulculty proving in front of a judge that before this all was well.
I would send them a letter special delivery if you can afford it refusing to accept their final demand include proof of your medical condition i.e. time of diagnosis and full diagnosis if the doctor charges you send them the receipt and request repayment, also include proof of self employment whatever that may entail NI documents tax documents etc.
Do not accept this you have a cast iron case, try this before the fos but get your complaint form ready as you may have missed the boat here.
The best of luck keep going you will get a refund!
Lloyds TSB (SARS) request sent 9th June 2006
£2191 Moneyclaim Issued 11/08/2006, Acknowleded 17th August Defence 14 Sep, AQ returned 5/10/2006.SETTLED IN FULL £2,670 26/11/2006/ Lloyds Credit Card SETTLED IN FULL £267 MBNA SETTLED IN FULL 15/09/2006 £829 Citicard (SARS) request sent 22nd June 2006 Moneyclaim issued 19th Sep, Defence and AQ received 5/10/2006, AQ returned 5/10/2006, part refund received 10/10/2006
GE MONEY SETTLLED IN FULL £400
Barclaycard Me and Mrs SARS sent 19/10/2006 settled £350
Welcome Finance PPI 2 accounts one settled £1018 waiting on other
GE Money PPI 1 account settled 8/5/2008 £560 2nd account SETTLED IN FULL £3,599.78p 15thAugust 2008
Lloyds TSB PPI CC complaint sent 10/04/2008
Black Horse PPI with FOS 20/05/2008
HFC PPI complaint sent 22/05/2008
My decision to purchase PPI was made against the information I was given at the point of sale, when I ticked a box, I now know that this information was incomplete as I was not provided with a full insurance policy.
[QUOTE=adamski;1653410]I would not have said this but all is not lost.
The above statement was correct, as I was not provided with any information Re; PPI policy T&C's, when I ticked the box on the Application Form: Please enrol me in Capital One's Payment Protection Scheme; I have never been supplied with a full PPI policy
[Quote] by adamski: Was this advised or non adivsed?
Non advised, it was a postal application for a credit card
[Quote] by adamski: I think insurance was regulated but just under different rules ICOB I believe someone correct me if I am wrong but I am most sure of this.
I believe that PPI fell under General Insurance, which was non regulated in 2000
[Quote by adamski: OH NO they did not you had a pre exsiting medical condition.
Did you send them proof of this i.e. a doctors letter containg diagnosois and time of diagnosis,
No, I didn't know that I had to...do you mean then, or recently?
[Quote] by adamski: also did you send them proof you were self employed,also have you checked the T&Cs to see if self employed was covered?
I stated on the Application Form that I was self employed by ticking the relevant box. It is only recently that I have discovered that I could have only made a claim under unenployment, if I had been made insolvent/bankrupt.
[Quote by adamski: They would have diffulculty proving in front of a judge that before this all was well.
[Quote by adamski; I would send them a letter special delivery if you can afford it refusing to accept their final demand include proof of your medical condition i.e. time of diagnosis and full diagnosis if the doctor charges you send them the receipt and request repayment, also include proof of self employment whatever that may entail NI documents tax documents etc.
Will do
[Quote by admskio not accept this you have a cast iron case, try this before the fos but get your complaint form ready as you may have missed the boat here.
I have already told CapOne that the above is not within the remit of the FOS. There response was:
"You stated in your letter that this does not fall within the remit of the FOS but you are incorrect with this statement as you still have the option of referring this matter to them"
This comment was made due to the fact that I have not been supplied under s78 CCA '74 with a valid credit agreement; only an application form. Together with the fact that my PPI complaint does not fall within the required six year time scale, that is required by the FOS for PPI complaints. I believe that CapOne are using the FOS as a get out, they know that the FOS is bogged down with complaints!
"I refer to your letter of 24 July about your payment protection insurance (PPI). I am writing to you out of courtesy as we have already issued our final response to this matter.
The advice I have received from the fos is if you get a Final response (saying no refund/Up yours/ No chance you signed this/No chance you had 30 days/You knew what you were doing/It's all in the very small print/Our salespersons completed the customer duty of care or needs and requirements forms, or no response within 8 weeks then bang in a complaint.
I would advise you to make a complaint to the FOS (at least phone them and give them the information on your complaint) so they can at least give you advice on whether they will look at your complaint.
The Fos may well be swamped with complaints and it may well take them 6-9 months of even longer to deal with the mass of complaints they are receiving but they will eventually do that, the fact is the FOS are upholding 4 out of 5 complaints for mis-selling, so if you believe you have a solid case, send them all the information you have.
It is a long wait but if you have a case and you present it to the FOS then the odds at 4 out of 5 upheld is a 4-1 win situation. (any bookmakers out there to see the offer of odds like this please advise).
You must also remember that if the FOS do not uphold a complaint you still have recourse to start Court action in your own right.
I am no legal expert but the FOS are definately becoming seriously interested in the scale of the PPI issue. It is only the speed of action that is the problem.
Having read your excellent letter to cap one in which you refer to the basic principles that they have failed to observe when selling you PPI, and also the fact that they acknowledge the lack of T&Cs - instead providing a summary of cover - I think that you should do what you have threatened to do in your letter; take them to court. They would never acknowledge mis-selling in their responses to your letters, it's not in their interests to do so!! The letter is patronising and they hope you will go away - they always do this!
Cap One are already on dodgy ground here and I cannot see them representing themselves in court and justifying their actions. You have definitely been mis-sold PPI. The FSA regulations that have been in place since 2000 have not been followed. You have been ill-advised: exclusion clauses have been withheld which constitutes 'concealment'; were you made aware of alternative PPI purchasing options and the comparative costs (which Cap One would have known at the time)? probably not ... I could go on here ...
Ultimately, if you had been in full possession of all the information you have now when purchasing PPI from Cap One, I imagine that you would not had chosen it. That is the crux of the mis-selling argument.
A collegue i used to work with has a case against them for mis selling of PPI. He complained to the Ombudsman, and they wrote back saying that they could not help with the claim, as Capital One was not regulated at that time. The Financial Leasing Authority had a quick peek at it and got bored, so he has filed with the court. Just waiting for a hearing date now.
One avenue to look at is that Capital One say they are not authorised to give advice on PPI. Then they go to say in some letters i have seen, is that they have procedures in place to monitor the sale of PPI. So they have shot themselves in the foot with those comments.
They have procedures in place, and are not authorised to give advice?
Well see what the judge has to say when we get to court.
Absolutely agree there UK ... I have a feeling that, should AC take this to court, cap one would do their usual thing and crumble before the hearing date.
UK, is your friend's case listed in a thread on CAG? It would be useful to be able to follow progress.
uk - im just starting on this trail of mis sold PPI and would be keen to see whats happened with your friend case - so please fill us in on where we can follow-
I will not be taking the complaint to the fos and have already prepared an extensive POC.
Although CapOne sold the PPI;
Robinson Way & Co Ltd claim to have been sold the account, although to date they have not provided any documentary evidence that they are the assignee. Although they have been asked to provide all documents under CPR 4.6(c).
Both CapOne and Robinson Way, have been sent preliminary letters before action and lba's.
Yesterday, I sent one more rquest to Robinson Way & Company Limited under CPR 4.6(c).
Asking them;
1. are you the Creditor?
2. you state that the alleged debt was assigned to you
if so, is the alleged assignment;
Absolute, or
Equitable?
3. Can you confirm that you have supplied all the documents that, you will
be relying on in court.
Much luck from aa with your claim. I have my reasons for going the long way through fos but details later.
I will support where I have the knowledge for anyone going their own route to reclaim PPI. Not extensive knowledge, but my letters of complaint may help.
aa
Just noticed this from earlier post...
I am curious to see whether it will be cap one (Europe) or Robinson Way who acknowledge the claim once you have filed your N1 (and killer POC!).
Capital One PPI - Won't Refund
”. Factually in the FSA ruling against Capital One on 15 February 2007 the FSA found that between 14 January 2005 and 05 April 2006 Capital One breached the FSA terms in that the bank was:
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o not accept this you have a cast iron case, try this before the 
