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Parked in a store's small car park at about 22:30 for 14 minutes. Didn't notice an obvious sign. I then got a £95 charge in the post. I am NOT the registered keeper.
Went back to site, found a board, which is not lit at night and is not directly in front of the cars parked; it's about 20 feet behind on a wall. Basically for customers only, though I parked well after business hours.
I have no intention of paying and I'm fairly confident, having read the stickies, that nothing will happen. Does this sound like a fairly straightforward case for me?
How come you got the charge if you are not the RK?
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Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.
The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.
I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.
Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.
The template stickies cover the position. Your family member needs to write one letter. You do the rest.
In this case, you do need to write because otherwise the other family member will get hassle and this could cause disharmony in the family.
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Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.
The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.
I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.
Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.
Thanks for the reply. My family member is not worried about the hassle at all; he knows about these clowns. Does he in any way have to give my details? I know he doesn't in any correspondence with the PPC, but what about if he ignores the PPC's letters and they take him to court? If he goes to court and says he wasn't the driver does he have to give my details?
What about if he writes a letter stating he wasn't the driver but refuses to give my details, can the PPC bring an action against the keeper and driver jointly?
Also, why is that the the statement, "If you park here, you agree to pay £75" not a valid contract. I've seen on here that people have said it cannot hold up in court as it's not a proper legal contract. By simply parking there, does that mean I have read and accepted the terms of the contract? Do they have to prove that I read and accepted the terms? I honestly didn't see the sign when I parked so it's impossible to have happened. What is the law regarding entering into a contract such as this?
What about if he writes a letter stating he wasn't the driver but refuses to give my details, can the PPC bring an action against the keeper and driver jointly?
The contract, to the extent it exists, is with the driver. Without definate information as to who the driver is, how could the PPC bring an action against them. They need a name and address for the court form.
The PPCs only option is to issue an action against the keeper hoping to flush them out as being the driver. CPS tried this tactic at Oldham county court recently and failed to impress the judge, the case being thrown out.
Regarding the other matter, case law Vine v Waltham Forest [a clamping case] would seem to indicate that the test for whether signs have been read, understood and agreed to is a subjective, not objective test. That is to say that there is no presumption that the defendant read the signs just because they were there.
Plus, £75 is too high a charge for it not be a penalty. They're not entitled to £75; they're entitled to whatever damages the driver's actions have cost them. Which is about £0.
Plus, £75 is too high a charge for it not be a penalty. They're not entitled to £75; they're entitled to whatever damages the driver's actions have cost them. Which is about £0.
'Fraid I don't agree.
If the sign says to the effect of:
"You can park here for a fee of £75" - that can form the casis of an enforcable contract (enforcing it is another matter).
If the sign says to the effect of:
"You can park here but if you don't park in a way that we like we will charge you £75" - then you can form an argument that the £75 is a penalty in disguise.
It is perfectly possible to park your car and incur an entirely lawful charge of £75. Those that do so normally have barrier operated systems so you cannot leave without payment.
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Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.
The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.
I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.
Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.
The sign (which I really didn't see that night and didn't know it was there), read:
"Customer parking only. This car park is for the exclusive use of ********* customers whilst visiting this store. If your vehicle remains in this car park for any other reason you agree to pay a £95 parking charge. £75 if paid within 14 days."
I would think this still counts as a penalty. I would argue that the offer is not to park for £75/95, it's to park for free if one is a customer of the store. The service is free; unless they aren't a customer. If the driver was not a customer, then this is a breach of contract for which the PPC charge a penalty.
Also, the notice that came in the post claims, "Parking longer than the allowed free time. Free time = 0 min." And that the 'keeper' was involved in a 'parking contravention'. They're certainly trying to make it look like a penalty.
Someone also put it to me that perhaps Trespassing may come into; any thoughts?
Bernie is right AND m.r.w. is also right in his analysis too, private paid for parking is a perfectly legitimate business. I recently had to pay £120 for parking at Manchester airport - approx 10 days at the long stay car park. Entry was by barrier, taking a ticket, exit was also by barrier, using the paid and stamped ticket. The ticket system removes the uncertainty about who is the driver, and whether the charges are agreed or not. Paid for Private parking exists everywhere. If companies were not allowed a return on their investment, these facilities simply would not exist.
In the case m.r.w describes, there is a defined breach for which the driver "agrees" to pay £95 - a clear penalty in my view. You can see what the PPC is trying to say but the wording is clumsy and does not therefore achieve their desired effect.
Parking on private land without permission does constitute tresspass, however no chance of the PPC going down this line as they would then only be able to claim damages, based on actual loss, not the arbitary figures they state, which appear to be just plucked out of thin air.
Whether a claim for payment is legitimate [stated hourly / daily rate] or a penalty [unauthorised vehicles, no permit, not within bays etc] depends on the wording and the particular circumstances. It is wrong to say that an implied contract for private parking is ALWAYS unenforceable.
Bernie is right AND m.r.w. is also right in his analysis too, private paid for parking is a perfectly legitimate business. I recently had to pay £120 for parking at Manchester airport - approx 10 days at the long stay car park. Entry was by barrier, taking a ticket, exit was also by barrier, using the paid and stamped ticket. The ticket system removes the uncertainty about who is the driver, and whether the charges are agreed or not. Paid for Private parking exists everywhere. If companies were not allowed a return on their investment, these facilities simply would not exist.
Thank you.
Airport parking is the perfect example of huge fees applicable for a private parking contract which are entirely lawful.
I have referred to it more than once.
The key issue is not so much the amount of the penalty/charge but what triggers it.
************************* *******************
Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.
The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.
I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.
Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.
Now what if the car park had a limit of 10 days, after which the charge would shoot up to £500 a day. Say your plane was delayed and you came back a day late and the barrier would not raise until you had paid the £500.
What's the situation there?
Of course, what if the fee was not £12 a day, but much much higher? Can you just operate a car park that charges £1000 a day?
Now what if the car park had a limit of 10 days, after which the charge would shoot up to £500 a day. Say your plane was delayed and you came back a day late and the barrier would not raise until you had paid the £500.
What's the situation there?
Of course, what if the fee was not £12 a day, but much much higher? Can you just operate a car park that charges £1000 a day?
Fantasy land.
I have not come across an airport parking co that operates in this way.
The nearest parallel that I can think of to what you are talking about is the price of drinks.
If say the average price of a soft drink in a cafe or pub is £1.50, it is not unusual to find that they are £5 in a flash place, £10 in a night-club in London and £20 or more in a lap-dancing club. All perfectly lawful.
Generally speaking the authorities do not interfere over whether the price is or appears to be a good bargain where the prices were clearly identified beforehand and where they fall within reasonable expecatations of the parties.
This last point is what PPCs rely on, they rely on the cost of the purported contraventions being in line with reasonable expectations. It is for us to show that they are not.
************************* *******************
Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.
The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.
I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.
Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.
Private Car park charge
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Originally Posted by m.r.w
