Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder TheCoolerKing Novitiate

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    Default Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    Glad I found this site, I was beginning to think I was on my own. I'm half way through a Tribunal hearing for what appeared to be a straight forward case of my employer fabricating evidence to justify them dismissing me for Gross Misconduct. I wont go into the details yet, but basically I am representing myself and have produced lots of evidence to dispute the employer and their witnesses credibility. All my colleagues & friends thought it would be a straight forward case because the evidence is black & white. But none of us counted on a totally bent Employment Tribunal Judge. Not only have they helped the respondents witnesses answer questions while I was cross examining them!, but the Judge also is quite clearly allowing the respondents highly paid solicitor loads of leaway, whilst giving me (an unrepresented layperson) no help/advice whatsoever. The Judges that spoke to me during the two CMD's were very helpful, but the Judge at my hearing is totally bias, and the 2 lay assistants dont say a word. It seems that other people on this site have had this problem. I was thinking about lodging an appeal, but whose to say the next Judge wont be bias aswell. Any comments/suggestions much appreciated, but I think its a no-hoper. They say "Honesty Pays", but I think "Money Talks" is more appropriate when it comes to the Employment Tribunal system.

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  2. #2
    Basic Account Holder mortlake Novitiate

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    Default Re: Bias Employment Tribunal Judge

    Are his initials G-Z and is he on the South London circuit?

    My guess is that society generally, and government courtiers in particular, are getting more snobby and less interested in equality before the law.

    Options:
    • Appeal. But my judge was careful to cover his tracks, making it look as though most of the claim was out of time and not letting me know what was going-on until he made his judgement. You could check your judge's name for previous appeals against his judgements on BAILII - United Kingdom Employment Appeal Tribunal (easiest) Employment Appeal Tribunal > Search Judgments (most up to date). If your case is finished and you are wondering whether to appeal, it might look a stronger case if your judge has had his judgements overturned for the same reason before. And if you're still at the first hearing, the judge might give more time to issues where he's scared of a second appeal being made against his judgement for the same reason as before.
    • Sanity check your case with Which legal services, who are only 12 a quarter and will discuss a case from before you joined-up. They might help find the wood for the trees and help you rehearse an argument a bit. Also sanity check grounds for appeal and whether there's much chance of costs against.
    • It sounds like there's no time left and the hearing is over, but if not there might be a no-win no-fee employment lawyer close to the tribunal who is willing to sit-in with you and discuss your case in the waiting room, giving advice as you go but letting you do the talking in the tribunal. The lawyer can then claim standard extra fees from the other side if you win and has only lost a day or so if you loose. And the judge might not take advantage so much if there is a witness. I don't know if this is common but have heard of trades union lawyers doing-it. If a lawyer can't come then any witness might make the judge less willing to cut corners.
    • If you can't appeal, complain to the regional chairman perhaps getting an MP to forward a letter. I got an extremely rude response from the man but a very careful and detailed response from the judge himself, so it shook them up a bit. There was even some attempt at giving me a time limit to go to the government's new quango for dealing with judges who do strange things - sorry I forget what it's called.
    Would be interested to read how it went. Some employers have got nothing better to do than plot constuctive dismissals. The last thing anyone wants next is a judge who doesn't believe they exist and has probably never done an ordinary job in his life.

    Good luck!
    John ( j o h n a t e m p l o y e e s o r g u k )

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  3. #3
    Basic Account Holder TheCoolerKing Novitiate

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    Default Re: Bias Employment Tribunal Judge

    Cheers Mortlake,
    Thanks very much for your suggestions, I will definately look into them.
    No it isnt G Z, or on South London circuit. There are obviously more bias ET judges around than I thought.

    Yes it is one hell of a blow when honest & decent people are bullied & treated unfairlyicon by big-bucks employers who know that they can get away with dismissing people when & how they want, then the ET judge is blatantly bias. Especially when one of the employers witnesses is named as a lay member on Employment Tribunals! Talk about an old boys school or what!


  4. #4
    Basic Account Holder TheCoolerKing Novitiate

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    Default You can WIN

    I was unfairly dismissedicon on multiple counts of Gross Misconduct over 12 months ago. I represented myself, and I won on all counts, 100% unanimous decision in my favour with zero contributionicon. It has been a long long, emotional, depressing, exhausting and financial nightmare, but I'm glad I stuck it out. I knew from the start that the company were trying to get me out, and they had a high paid lawyer threatening & intimidating me throughout the whole process. But in the end justice prevailed.
    For anyone out there who is going through it - it gets very very tough, but if you know you are innocent, try & stick it out because in the end its worth it.
    I hope I never have to go through that again, but if I do, I know that the multi-million pound companies will lie & cheat through the whole process; but in my case, the employment judge saw through their lies.


  5. #5
    Basic Account Holder questioning Informative questioning Informative questioning Informative questioning Informative questioning's Avatar

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    Default Re: You can WIN

    well done,
    Its good to hear.


    I've just had a glance at your posts, from what I can gather it sounds a nightmare, very well done again.

    For attractive lips, speak words of kindness. For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people. For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. For poise, walk with the knowledge that you never walk alone. People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed, and redeemed; never throw out anyone. Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms. As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands; one for helping yourself, and the other for helping others.
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  6. #6
    Basic Account Holder TheCoolerKing Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    Cheers Questioning, much appreciated.

    Yes it has been 12 months of an absolute nightmare, but at last the hardest bit is over.
    Now I've got to try and get the money out of him.
    Despite him being named in the Richest people list I am sure he will do everything to avoid paying me what I am rightly due.

    The most important thing is that I have cleared my name, and people working for him will now see what type of person he is & what lengths he is prepared to go to get someone out of his company.

    I must say that the Judge soon changed their attitude to the case when I read my statement out, and presented evidence of how the boss had bullied & intimidated me. Summoning up the Tribunal slated the way the employer had behaved towards me.

    I hope my experience will show people on here that despite all the hassle & depression, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

    As Steve McQueen once said - "If I believe in something - I'll fight like hell for it".


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder cutiepie22 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    This is great news! I am going through a similar experience so good to hear there is light!

    Can I pm u later?


  8. #8
    Basic Account Holder TheCoolerKing Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by cutiepie22 View Post
    This is great news! I am going through a similar experience so good to hear there is light!

    Can I pm u later?
    Hi Cutiepie,
    Sorry to hear that you are going through a similar experience.
    I know how tough it can be.
    By all means pm me if I can be of any help.

    When I first started it all I purchased a book called "Employment Tribunals: Tactics & Precedents" by Naomi Cunningham - it was a really big help.
    If you Google it the first chapter is shown free on-line.
    I got mine from local Law book shop Butterworths, it cost 30 which is a huge amount when your unemployed, but it was worth every penny.
    On line there is also a blog linked to this book which gives brilliant tips for fighting your case.


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder almond Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolerKing View Post
    Hi Cutiepie,
    Sorry to hear that you are going through a similar experience.
    I know how tough it can be.
    By all means pm me if I can be of any help.

    When I first started it all I purchased a book called "Employment Tribunals: Tactics & Precedents" by Naomi Cunningham - it was a really big help.
    If you Google it the first chapter is shown free on-line.
    I got mine from local Law book shop Butterworths, it cost 30 which is a huge amount when your unemployed, but it was worth every penny.
    On line there is also a blog linked to this book which gives brilliant tips for fighting your case.
    hi
    using the same book a great read and very useful, i go mine of ebayicon
    for about 15.


  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder sinussoother Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    I think I should take a look at it, even though I am fortunate to be represented in my case.

    Thanks for the tip!


  11. #11
    Basic Account Holder bunnyboo Novitiate

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    Unhappy Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    How do they get away with it? I recently had an employment tribunal as my employer dismissedicon me for gross misconduct. The accusations were completely trumped up and the reason I was dismissed was for for personal reasons of the manager. Even though all the truth came out at the tribunal and the manager actually admitted that there were no complaints about me from any members of staff I lost my case. I was representing myself. I had a background in a legal position. I spent 12 months familiarising myself in employment law in preparation for the tribunal. I even had advice from employment solicitor friends but they were unable to represent due to unavailable funding. However I was confident to do it myself. I had more than plenty of enough evidence to back up my argument and cross examined my manager and three other witnessess who crumbled before the judges. One of their witnessess lied under oath and was proved to do so. This was all going in my favour, or so I thought, and so would anyone who witnessed the tribunal. It could not have been a more clear cut case and I was confident it would win. Unbelievably though that is not what happened at all. The judge had managed to completely turn all my evidence and hard work around to suit my employer. The person who lied was let off as the judge said we will ignore her evidence as it was not reliable. I was sat listening to his judgement with my jaw on the floor. The judge even went so far as to say "this is a reputable organisation you worked for" almost implying how dare you say these things about them. Upon receiving the written reasons some six months later I appealed the decision as the judge had ignored evidence, misunderstood crucial documents and had been bias. I have just received a short note back from the EAT notifying me that I did not have grounds for appeal but with no reasons for their decision. I was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if there is any more I can do. I had a very strong case but thanks to a completely bias judge I have been left a little traumatised by the whole event. I have no faith in the employment justice system but know that people do win. What do you have to do to convince these judges that there are rogue employers out there? Nobody goes through these things if they have not suffered an injustice at the hands of their employers do they?


  12. #12
    Basic Account Holder almond Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    hi
    well i won as i said in my other post 15,750 + 1000 costs and interesticon of 8%, when i will get the money is twenth of never, he did a runner and
    can't be found. I blame the judge and the tribunal system. I informed them
    he had moved from cornwall in may to scotland at a hearing in july (no notice was taken) that at a hearing in september I told them the office had closed (again no notice was taken) and at my hearing in october we asked the judge how we serve the papers on him and i was wished good luck. His ex landlord has taken on a private eye who can't find him. I got a visit from taxman a few weeks ago since he had used my address for one of his 21 limited companies.I have emailed the times paper since their were doing a write up on tribunal cases, not interested. Emailed tuc etc
    all say so sorry but can't advise. acas are'nt interested either.
    Its a sad case that it took me 18 months to win and it was a total waste of time. I now have to put on my cv that i left ex company after taking them to a tribunal so are classed as a trouble maker and got nothing to show for it. unless anybody has any ideas?


  13. #13
    Basic Account Holder mortlake Novitiate

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    Default

    Almond: If it wasn't for the recession I'd suggest laundering your CV: taking the reasons for leaving off your CV (maybe mentioning it in an agency interview but not in the CV you write), somehow getting a few bits of temp work or self employment, until eventually no new employer will bother taking a reference off the one you sued. Hope your line of work is one in which this is still possible.

    BunnyBoo: Saddened by your post without knowing an answer. I tried going to an MP but she just forwarded letters everywhere without reading them and got either no response or a sarcastic response wherever. I don't think the read the letters inbound or outbound and I just didn't have time to follow it up. The letter from the South London Circuit person who's chief tribunal chair was sarcastic "unable to understand ... constituent appears to have misunderstood purpose of tribunal ... please convey this to your constituent ... etc". MP was more interested in the tiny minority of consituents who are called "local people" and campaign against shops, planes, housing, mobile phone masts etc. I suppose it might be more possible with her help to get more detailed reasons for judgement and at least make this chair think about her actions a bit more clearly. Apparently the Freedom of Information Act doesn't apply to judges notes because it might "undermine confidence"!

    I wish I had done a Freedom of Information Act request to find out how many people sue this company before seeing her: I might have interested her more and a contact might do it anyway, just out of curiosity.

    There is meant to be a new compaints system for chairs / judges who act in a bizarre way. I haven't tracked it down and it's probably more aimed at judges who are drunk or such than ones who mis-handle cases. As for appeal, you could try Which Legal Services' advice for how to work the system. The system sounds like one geared to getting through cases as quickly as possible, staffed by people used to too much power who sometimes don't believe that employers can spend so much time lying and scheming against hard working employees.

    I signed something to say that I shouldn't mention an old employer, but I met an old colleague recently from Alcohol Recovery Project who had a similar experience, firstly on all points being ruled out of time without the right questions being asked and then on an appeals system designed to fob-off and discourage any attempt at appeal. He tells me that he thinks the company have plotted unfair dismissals against one person after another - basically everyone, even if there were perfectly fair ways to dismiss them or at the other extreme if they were the most productive employee in town.

    Hope that your attempts to seek justice and others like them have a good effect on the world nevertheless and glad to hear that people like you have done so much work to make things better.

    Oh: just Googled:
    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle2091909.ece and
    http://www.judicialcomplaints.gov.uk/
    - a distraction from appeal and a second stage of complaint, but maybe interesting to someone who reads this thread. First stage might be a request for notes made at the time, possibly forwarded by an MP.

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  14. #14
    Basic Account Holder Jason F Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyboo View Post
    Upon receiving the written reasons some six months later I appealed the decision as the judge had ignored evidence, misunderstood crucial documents and had been bias. I have just received a short note back from the EAT notifying me that I did not have grounds for appeal but with no reasons for their decision. I was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if there is any more I can do. I had a very strong case but thanks to a completely bias judge I have been left a little traumatised by the whole event. I have no faith in the employment justice system but know that people do win. What do you have to do to convince these judges that there are rogue employers out there? Nobody goes through these things if they have not suffered an injustice at the hands of their employers do they?
    Do your Employment Solicitor Friends think you have a case? Just there is Legal Aid for EAT claims.

    You have alleged Bias in your appeal?

    Your rejection MUST have said something - it MAY have said "there is no real prospect of success"...

    What you can do is write to the EAT and request a 3(10) hearing - this will then go before an Appeal Judge where you can state your case (and they can be flexible and allow you to amend your notice of appeal) and they decide if they think you are ok to proceed, i.e. you get permission to proceed to the Appeal.

    When the judge said those things, did you write them down? Did he give reasons why the evidence of one of the witnesses was not accepted?


  15. #15
    Basic Account Holder ms_smith Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyboo View Post
    How do they get away with it? I recently had an employment tribunal as my employer dismissed me for gross misconduct. The accusations were completely trumped up and the reason I was dismissed was for for personal reasons of the manager. Even though all the truth came out at the tribunal and the manager actually admitted that there were no complaints about me from any members of staff I lost my case. I was representing myself. I had a background in a legal position. I spent 12 months familiarising myself in employment law in preparation for the tribunal. I even had advice from employment solicitor friends but they were unable to represent due to unavailable funding. However I was confident to do it myself. I had more than plenty of enough evidence to back up my argument and cross examined my manager and three other witnessess who crumbled before the judges. One of their witnessess lied under oath and was proved to do so. This was all going in my favour, or so I thought, and so would anyone who witnessed the tribunal. It could not have been a more clear cut case and I was confident it would win. Unbelievably though that is not what happened at all. The judge had managed to completely turn all my evidence and hard work around to suit my employer. The person who lied was let off as the judge said we will ignore her evidence as it was not reliable. I was sat listening to his judgement with my jaw on the floor. The judge even went so far as to say "this is a reputable organisation you worked for" almost implying how dare you say these things about them. Upon receiving the written reasons some six months later I appealed the decision as the judge had ignored evidence, misunderstood crucial documents and had been bias. I have just received a short note back from the EAT notifying me that I did not have grounds for appeal but with no reasons for their decision. I was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if there is any more I can do. I had a very strong case but thanks to a completely bias judge I have been left a little traumatised by the whole event. I have no faith in the employment justice system but know that people do win. What do you have to do to convince these judges that there are rogue employers out there? Nobody goes through these things if they have not suffered an injustice at the hands of their employers do they?
    Hi, what legal point you were raising? Unfar dismissalicon, bullying? Was this quote "we will ignore her evidence as it was not reliable" referring to you or to a female witness? What compensation did you claim?


  16. #16
    Basic Account Holder skaatiii Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    Having read this post Im now even more unsure about continuing my ET claim than I was before.


  17. #17
    Basic Account Holder BigBuzzard Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    OMG! When I found this I was amazed! Stupidly, because I am honest and straightforward and because I was brought up to respect experts in their field, I believed that the judge in my son's tribunal case must "know best". I represented him and whilst I am an HR Officer there is no doubt that in some areas relating to specific law I was a bit out of my depth.

    Basis of the case was that my son was a driver who lost his licence for 6m being drunk in charge (although technically he wasn't as he did not have the keys to the vehicle but his solicitor was useless and told him he HAD to plead guilty). There had been two other employees previously who had lost their licences for 3 years each and who had both been retained by the employer. My son had 5 years service and employer stated that he was a good employee. He was given alternative work and believed that this would continue until he retained his licence as he had not been told otherwise. There were redundancies going on at the time in the company and two months after the ban he was called to a staff meeting where they were told that they were at risk. Then the following week he was called to a meeting, having no prior knowledge of what it was about and dismissed for losing his licence!

    At the tribunal it came out that the person who dismissed was not even employed by the company and had no authority to do so, that he was only allowed 2 days to appeal even though their policy stated 5 days, that the decision to dismiss had been taken PRIOR to the hearing as he was handed the letter confirming it prior to the start of the meeting, that his boss had considered he should be "laid off" as he was last in to that section (redundancyicon???). His company did not call 3 witnesses who were crucial to the case, only he and the non employee attended. They both lied under oath and it was so obvious - they tied themselves up in knots in their evidence, contradicting what they had previously said and both were really uncomfortable under questionning, the non employee becoming sarcastic towards me during questionning. Hi employer lied by saying that he had always told my son that the position was temporary (he never did), there was no documentation to support anything he was saying and the documentation there was, was appalling! The non employee lied about things that were said at the "hearing" even though these were not contained in the submitted minutes of the meeting, she just added them on to try and discredit my son!

    We thought we had it sewn up. We were claiming unfair dismissal and redundancy and the associated payments. However the judge ignored much of the evidence. Although she (the judge) questionned the employer about the length of the ban v the length of service of a good employee and he said he never considered it, AND considering that after receipt of the ET1 they offered him his job back even though he had still not got his licence back AND his boss said he would bring him back on other duties until he did get his licence back - the judge said in summing up that they could not be expected to foresee how much work there might have been for him!

    UD was accepted and he got one weeks pay for breach of contract and 5 weeks basic award, all reduced by 50% under the Polkey principle as she said that my son would not have been in this situation if he had not lost his licence. The employers representative asked them to reconsider that as he said my son was 100% responsible for losing his licence so they sent us out again while they reconsidered but then decided that their original decision was correct as they considered that the loss of licence was 50% of the reason for the dismissal and the reduction in available work was the other 50%. However they awarded nothing for other losses since, i.e. my son found another job fairly quickly (a miracle in itself in this climate) but earns substantially less. There is so much more I could say but it was so obvious that the judge was on their side. At one point I apologised when I was picked up on something by the judge and stated that this was not my usual job and she said, "Oh really, we'd never have guessed", really sarcastically! I thought that they would take into account that I was a lay person but that doesn't seem to have happened.

    From a legal perspective I did not know how to argue the points regarding losses and just hoped they had it right. But considering that they have apportioned 50% of the dismissal to redundancy, should there have been more of an award? If anyone knows I would be grateful for a response.


  18. #18
    Basic Account Holder ms_smith Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    BigBuzzard, I think the majority of lay persons in law would say the same about judges and the whole justice system - we always hope they know better, best and all. Meanwhile...

    I have been through this process myself and was, indeed, hugely misled by this "promise" that non-represented claimants will be given a leeway. In reality, if the other side, with huge legal firm behind, was asking tribunal, let's say, for a permission to amend the claim at a later stage, they would be given the same consideration as would unrepresented claimants!
    Also, in reality, this whole "you will be given a leeway" means "you are not a legally trained person, therefore we assume you must be rather wrong BUT suit yourself, it is your claim, not ours".
    Cruel, indeed, and I tell to myself that there are some human approach motivated judges out there who will give a hand to unrepresented clamants.
    All I can say though, from my own case, it came out during CMD that a regional employment judge didn't know what a letter to the editor is (you assume that those judges are also life experienced people, isn't it?) but well, there is no reason why unrepresented claimants shouldn't adopt a balls of steel attitude towards judges, apart from the respondents, as well... and dig the law themselves!


  19. #19
    Basic Account Holder wildm Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    I have had a PHR and a CMD will either of these judges be at the actual hearing? One was fantastic the other was a right snob getting chummy with their barrister.


  20. #20
    Basic Account Holder amarjit Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

    Nope, is a simple answer, the PHR's and CMD's are held by different judges. Be glad you get the awful judges at these pre trial hearings as there's more of a chance to get neutral judges at the actual full hearing. With my case, I had very reasonable judges at the pre hearing stage then at the full hearing, well I couldn't have had a worse judge.

    Good luck



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