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    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
    • Thank-you FTMDave for your feedback. May I take this opportunity to say that after reading numerous threads to which you are a contributor, I have great admiration for you. You really do go above and beyond in your efforts to help other people. The time you put in to help, in particular with witness statements is incredible. I am also impressed by the way in which you will defer to others with more experience should there be a particular point that you are not 100% clear on and return with answers or advice that you have sought. I wish I had the ability to help others as you do. There is another forum expert that I must also thank for his time and patience answering my questions and allowing me to come to a “penny drops” moment on one particular issue. I believe he has helped me immensely to understand and to strengthen my own case. I shall not mention who it is here at the moment just in case he would rather I didn't but I greatly appreciate the time he took working through that issue with me. I spent 20+ years of working in an industry that rules and regulations had to be strictly adhered to, indeed, exams had to be taken in order that one had to become qualified in those rules and regulations in order to carry out the duties of the post. In a way, such things as PoFA 2012 are rules and regulations that are not completely alien to me. It has been very enjoyable for me to learn these regulations and the law surrounding them. I wish I had found this forum years ago. I admit that perhaps I had been too keen to express my opinions given that I am still in the learning process. After a suitable period in this industry I became Qualified to teach the rules and regulations and I always said to those I taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If opinions, theories and observations are put forward, discussion can take place and as long as the result is that the student is able to clearly see where they went wrong and got to that moment where the penny drops then that is a valuable learning experience. No matter how experienced one is, there is always something to learn and if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say, I don't know the answer to that question but I will go and find out what the answer is. In any posts I have made, I have stated, “unless I am wrong” or “as far as I can see” awaiting a response telling me what I got wrong, if it was wrong. If I am wrong I am only too happy to admit it and take it as a valuable learning experience. I take the point that perhaps I should not post on other peoples threads and I shall refrain from doing so going forward. 🤐 As alluded to, circumstances can change, FTMDave made the following point that it had been boasted that no Caggers, over two years, who had sent a PPC the wrong registration snotty letter, had even been taken to court, let alone lost a court hearing .... but now they have. I too used the word "seemed" because it is true, we haven't had all the details. After perusing this forum I believe certain advice changed here after the Beavis case, I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember reading. Could it be that after winning the above case in question, a claimant could refer back to this case and claim that a defendant had not made use of the appeal process, therefore allowing the claimant to win? Again, in this instance only, I do not know what is to be gained by not making an appeal or concealing the identity of the driver, especially if it is later admitted that the defendant was the driver and was the one to input the incorrect VRN in error. So far no one has educated me as to the reason why. But, of course, when making an appeal, it should be worded carefully so that an error in the appeal process cannot be referred back to. I thought long and hard about whether or not to post here but I wanted to bring up this point for discussion. Yes, I admit I have limited knowledge, but does that mean I should have kept silent? After I posted that I moved away from this forum slightly to find other avenues to increase my knowledge. I bought a law book and am now following certain lawyers on Youtube in the hope of arming myself with enough ammunition to use in my own case. In one video titled “7 Reasons You Will LOSE Your Court Case (and how to avoid them)” by Black Belt Barrister I believe he makes my point by saying the following, and I quote: “If you ignore the complaint in the first instance and it does eventually end up in court then it's going to look bad that you didn't co-operate in the first place. The court is not going to look kindly on you simply ignoring the company and not, let's say, availing yourself of any kind of appeal opportunities, particularly if we are talking about parking charge notices and things like that.” This point makes me think that, it is not such a bizarre judgement in the end. Only in the case of having proof of payment and inputting an incorrect VRN .... could it be worthwhile making a carefully worded appeal in the first instance? .... If the appeal fails, depending on the reason, surely this could only help if it went to court? As always, any feedback gratefully received.
    • To which official body does one make a formal complaint about a LPA fixed charge receiver? Does one make a complaint first to the company employing the appointed individuals?    Or can one complain immediately to an official body, such as nara?    I've tried researching but there doesn't seem a very clear route on how to legally hold them to account for wrongful behaviour.  It seems frustratingly complicated because they are considered to be officers of the court and held in high esteem - and the borrower is deemed liable for their actions.  Yet what does the borrower do when disclosure shows clear evidence of wrong-doing? Does anyone have any pointers please?
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Council Tax - Court Costs


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Last year a £74 court cost got added to my bill when they put a Liability order on my Council Tax. Can you claim that back. I know my rent officer is gonna get my Rent Court Cost refunded.

 

So i was just wondering if you can do the same for Council Tax.

 

Thanks :)

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Last year a £74 court cost got added to my bill when they put a Liability order on my Council Tax. Can you claim that back. I know my rent officer is gonna get my Rent Court Cost refunded.

 

So i was just wondering if you can do the same for Council Tax.

 

Thanks :)

 

If the liability order is valid - you can't claim it back. E.g., if you missed a payment, it's standard procedure to whack you with a liability order. It's not fair and a money making racket / tax on the poor in my book... but unfortunately the way it is.

 

I'm still fighting one where I got the court cost added because I was not even aware of the liability order.... they sent all the details for my current address to the old one. They flat out refuse to withdraw the charge so I need to work on my skills of telepathy, clearly. Words come to mind that would be inappropriate to post in this forum...

 

~G

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This isn't a question about the liability order, this is about the penalty charge added to the liability order fee.

A liability order costs £3, the rest is a penalty charge and as with all penalty charges can be reclaimed.

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Sorry al - although it is a penalty charge, it is not classed the same as bank charges and you will not be able to claim it back. This is an admin charge they add.

 

Why I say it is a penalty charge is because different councils add on different amounts, some add as much as £135 and others as low as £40, so it has to be a penalty.

 

In 2007 councils in England made £200,000,000 from these 'penalty' charges.

 

They now count liability orders as part of their income that is why they don't try very hard to get the tax from anyone, just one reminder and then court. They actually want people to default. (my opinion)

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Do you think it would be worth asking anyway and not in a reclaiming way just say writing a letter kindly asking if they would consider removing it as i know my Rent officer is doing the same for my Rent court cost once i get my arrears down.

 

as once my backdate for council tax benefit is sorted having that taken off i could pay the rest in one and then it's sorted.

 

But i suppose with the luck i'm having lately i might aswell not bother :(

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al are you on any benefits? if you are then that would help your cause.

 

They will claim as ss points out above that it is admin charges.

 

Write asking them if they will justify the £71 added to the liability order and that you know the actual cost of the order is £3.

 

Tell them if they cannot justify the amount, will they please refund it as non justification will mean it is a penalty charge.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi can anyone help me with my letter i'm not sure what to put, this is what i have so far.

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

RE:

I’m writing regarding the cost of the Liability Orders put on both my Council Tax bills.

Please can you justify the £71.00 and £73.00 added to the Liability Orders as I know the true cost is actually £3.00.

If you cannot justify the amounts then please refund them to both to my account as non justification.

I’ve currently got a claim in for Housing and Council Tax Benefit and I’ve also requested a backdate to help me get back on track with my arrears and last years bill. I’m just waiting to receive some information before I can send it in.

Yours faithfully

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  • 3 weeks later...

I sent the letter to my local Council regarding the costs and thiese are the replies i got. Any advice please.

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/jensenjaredaholic/Documents107-1.jpg

 

Thanks AL

Edited by animal_lover
removed wrong link
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That is total bunkum how they have 'tried' to justify the cost.

 

I.T. stationary etc are all budgeted into the normal years council tax. Accommodation - what the hell is that, are defaulters paying their mortgage for them.

 

Lets say reminders x5 (to be generous), spreadsheet to court (cost shared amongst all defaulters, in this case 4,315 (so 1p would be an over payment), liability order £3.

 

I would suggest that from start of the first reminder to them notifying you of the liability order £7 - but lets round that up to a tenner.

 

£65 profit.

 

But unless you can see the cost of these things and work them out on an individual basis, you can't call their bluff, so there is nothing you can do.

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