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On Monday I was cautioned Fist Capital Connect the guy took my details and said they would write to me...he did not give me any information as to which department or why he was doing this he just kept asking if I travel everyday.
OK I went from zone 3 into zone 2 and was stopped at zone 2, now this is not my usual route but I saw the train and jumped on in the belief that my ticket was valid. Well I thought my ticket was valid because couple of weeks ago I went into the station to see if I could get the train in to Kings Cross....there were inspectors at the gate and they scanned my Oystaer card and said fine go through. I went through and looked at the board, one train was cancelled and the other was delayed so I turned round and went to get the bus.
So Monday when I saw the train approaching I jumped on in the belief my ticket was valid. I got to the zone 2 stop and there were ticket inspectors there and they scanned my Oyster card and asked where I had come from and I said cricklewood, the guy asked me to step aside and I asked why he said cricklewood was zone 3 to which I explained that an inspector had checked my ticket previously in that station and had let me go through as such I believed that my card was valid.
The guy asked for my name etc and asked for my oyster card which I gave him, he asked what I had in my ticket wallet I said receipts and scrap he said he wanted to see the receipts and I asked why he said I had to show him, I said some of them were personal receipts he then started to caution me again I asked him why he was doing that and should he not explain the process of what was happening to me...I was getting a bit apprehensive now so i said is it the receipts you want so took out my oyster card receipts and other personal receipts and gave them to him and he stuided each one of them. Why?????
A colleague of his went by and said penalty to which he said something I could not make out and the colleague shrugged his shoulder and went off. Again I asked him to explain what was going on. nothing
He then said to me do I travel everyday, I said yes I do and he started to write things down how many times a week I said I dont know I dont keep count, he then scanned my card and said oh you went to elephant and castle yesterday you used the train I said how do you know he showed me on the scanner, he said I can check where ever you go, I said no I did not use the train, I used the under ground and he argued that I used the train surely the scanner should tell them which mode of transport I used....I finally had to tell him that first capital was not working Sunday so I could not have used it...and the only reason I know this was that a couple asked me at the bus stop which bus would get them to where they were going and they told me the train was not working.
Again I asked him to explain what was going on he did not say anything kept asking me questions on how may trips I make, I was truly lost and confused at this stage as I did not know what was happening, I even tried to ask a Police officer walking by to explain he just pointed to the guard.
WHen I left I was a bit dazed and confused all he said was that they will write to me...who will write to me??? When I got to work I told my boss who used to work at TFL, he said first of all he should have explained who he was and why he was cautioning you and show you a valid ID. Secondly he had no right to or look at your receipts, thirdly he his not allowed to check past journeys, he can only check todays journey, everything else comes under data protection. So I called first capital connect and spoke to a customer relations officer and he agreed with the first & 2nd as stated by my boss, but he did not know anything about data protection and ccould not answer, but he gave me the number of their prosecution service. I called the prosecution service and they said it could take 14 days to show up on their system, I said I would be away around that time and did not want to miss the letter, he asked me if I had money to pay the transport & the fine at the time I said yes he asked if the guy has asked me that I said yes, he said I should write in and put that in the letter..and send it in.
OK SORRY FOR THE LONG POST, but how do I write the letter yes I now know that the station is in zone 3 and should not have relied on the station inspector who had let me through thereby afirming what I believed that I could use my travel card in that zone.
PLease help me construct the letter and stop it being a long rant, I dont want to contest I just want to pay the £20 fine and be done with it. Would it be worth attaching a cheque for £20 or more with the letter....any help would be appreciated. thx
Hi
I work for FCC as an RPI and am wondering what has happened here. I think I know what has happened but I prefer to keep this via PM's as I believe personal information could be released.
Can you remember the description of the person that dealt with you.
Did you even see an ID badge?
Were they in Uniform.
Where were you stopped (what station).
The attitude of the person.
Were there loads of them or just two.
Were you even offered a penalty fare or part payment of a penalty fare. (If you were even suggested a penalty fare and you were willing to pay it then they have broken several rules and cannot 'do you' for intent to avoid.)
I have just come back from holiday to find that my housemate picked up my Oyster card wallet with my FCC season ticket in it instead of his own wallet with the day ticket. He had just bought a ticket and then rushed back home having forgotten something and in my hurry to get out of the house to the airport and his hurry we picked up the wrong wallets (he put his card down next to mine as he came in apparently).
He then got his ticket inspected, but it was not his ticket! It got worse as my season ticket with 10 months left to run was confiscated and now I am really worried that I will never get it back having read these forums! He was told he was going to be sent to court but is waiting for the letter from FCC.
I have no idea what to do, I only ever read that FCC Revenue and Prosecution people are very scary, but surely if there is a genuine error they look at it more sympathetically, they are human after all? But I am freaked that they treat everyone as criminals and this will be a nightmare...
He now has his day ticket back as I got home with it this weekend, so he can send it in, but I am hoping someone has some knowledge of how to proceed to get my season ticket back if that is even possible, who do I write to or call? I tried FCC Customer Care who were sympathetic but could not help me as it was a 'prosecution matter'....
He admitted he was wrong not to check the ticket so is under no illusion that he created an offence, but that does not help me!
Anyone who has any advice would be great! I cannot afford to lose my season ticket.:cry:
Hmm, i've heard of this before in a different situation.
How much do you like your house mate is how you proceed.
Of course you could claim your house mate nicked it and you suffered because of his theft, but don't expect to ever get on with them ever again.
I could give you the prosecutions number and address but there is no point until you get the letter from them as it wont have been assigned a case number (database number) and they'll wonder how the hell you got the number.
Was the season a monthly or longer? If so did you give your details when you purchased it?
You could go to the ticket office, claim you've lost it and get a replacement (cough at your risk if caught cough).
Most cases FCC dont go to court (it costs them too much in fees), but if you really want to screw them over, both you and your flat mate go to court. Get your flat mate to call you as a witness and state you live together and it was an easy mistake to pick up the wrong ticket. you do still have the original day ticket? If so keep it safe, clean, and unfaded as this will proove there was no intent to avoid payment and also screw up FCC case.
The season ticket was annual and I pay for it from a loan system my work has, so they will probably have a lot of details on a computer about me somewhere, so not sure that I want to risk any more problems with FCC, but I realistically cannot afford to pay for my season ticket loan AND buy another season ticket to replace the old one if I don't get it back, so you can understand I am totally freaked by the consequences of them keeping it out of some sense of duty and how long this could drag on for.
As it stands I am hoping it works out and am going to buy a weekly ticket tomorrow and hope that the credit card stands up to it and that FCC may see the human side and give me a break and refund me for these weekly tickets and give me my season ticket back.
There is no way I want to tell them my mate stole my ticket as he is only living with me temporarily as he just split with his g/f of 5 years! So he has enough strife and worry. This was almost the final straw to a bad few weeks.
He now has the original ticket, so he could go to court, but I think with everything else he is currently going through he hopes they will fine him and he can just pay it (even though he feels it is not his fault) and get his life back without this as a distraction.
Me, I just need my season ticket back and soon and go back to my quiet life!
In all honesty based on past cases that I've questioned/reported for, no body gets their tickets back. They are always used as evidence and then filed away.
I would suggest a phone call to [the number thats been PM'd to you] and ask to speak to the head of prosecutions and explain what's happened.
It does take a while for the paperwork from the inspector to get entered onto the database.
You wont get your weekly tickets money back, I can tell you that for a certainty.
For purposes of Karma, I am posting the end of this sorry tale! I notice that most posters on this site never return having grabbed all the information from fellow posters and so we never know what the outcomes of these train stories are...
My mate first wrote a letter to FCC, but got no response, but eventually got a letter asking for his account of what happened. That was followed by a Summons and Court date was set.
After a phone call which came to nothing we both wrote and explained again and then called again explained the case and finally this was then taken seriously and they agreed to drop the case.
The next stage was getting my season ticket back which involved applying through the lost card scheme. That took just 2 days.
The final stage was getting my tickets that I had bought during this nightmare refunded. This was done through some other form and the money was put back on my bank card within a couple of weeks.
So a happy ending and it is largely part to the advise from this forum, Swarb forum and Unfareevasion .org who helped with the letters.
Good luck to everyone else and thanks to MC661 on this thread. I hope that anyone that finds this thread helpful also adds a final post to their story too whether it was good or bad it all helps us work out what the process is.
Admittedly it was not easy, but it was an initial error on my part so although I was not that happy about how much effort it took.
They are still crazy though!
Last week being stopped from going over the bridge over the tracks at my local station to get from one side of the town where the shops are to where the big railway car park is and being told to produce a train ticket! I was about to kick off but it was cold, dark and late and so I produced my season ticket and went on my way...but since when was it an offence to cross the railway bridge without a train ticket - there is no barrier or anything to pass....I think the situation will only get worse.
I now hope that more people will challenge their railway penalty fares if they are genuine errors and hopefully the cost of investigating so many cases and getting a lower percentage of prosecutions will make them act more reasonably. It is just like parking tickets: If EVERYONE challenged the parking ticket in the first instance the system would break down within weeks!
What an end to 2008! I'm hoping someone can help me. I have run into loads of inspectors (about 10-15) at Luton station last week and i didnt have a ticket. It wasnt my intention not to buy one as i tried to buy one at flitwick station. Not sure if anyone knows these stations but ticket office was closed and in fareness there was machines but i'm not sure how to use them as i'm not a frequent traveller. However i offered to pay for my journey with my electron card and was told they dont accept them and had no other money on me.
The inspector then asked me for my details and phoned someone to check? Who do they check with? anyway he preceeded to caution me like the police and asked me questions. I'm really ****ting myself now as they told me i may end up in court, but its down to the company as to what action they will take.
Is there anyway i can get out of this? i did try to pay for my fare but now its looking like i may end up in court. If anyone has any knowledge of these stations and can help me think of a way of getting out of it i would be much appreciated. Also i have no way of chasing this up as i dont have any contact information.
From my experience it seems the entire aim of the exercise is that you should panic and pay up.
But what would happen if EVERYONE caught on a Thameslink train without a valid ticket decided to appeal? Same goes for everyone who got a parking ticket...it would be chaos and the whole system would break down!
Now I got that cleared up...first of all don't panic! There is a process (of sorts) here and you have to go with the flow and march to the beat of their drum.
If you were cautioned then everything you said will be detailed in a witness statement that will eventually land on your doorstep.
The next few weeks should be spend writing exactly what events took place in a logical way.
If this is a genuine mistake, it is unlikely they will want to drag you through the courts IF you can put a cohesive argument forward in your defence.
However, as you have already admitted here, you have travelled without a ticket (which is an offence) unless you are very old or can prove to them that you cannot work a ticket machine (or they were all broken) then you will need to beg forgiveness.
If you choose to plead not guilty, then you shoudl aim to call the Head of prosecutions and explain if they do not allow it
It may be worth asking the guys on the forum at unfareevasion as they really helped me get my letter together and make a phone call and avoid going to Court - but it was touch and go!
Good luck and make sure you let us all know what happens -- its all about Karma!
First capital connect? Have a search on google for 'first crapital connect' and see just how many more people there are out there who are totally furious with this apalling franchise operator.
Yep, I would say that they are pretty much hated by anyone who has the misfortune to travel with them, especially as a commuter. Some of the highest fares per mile of track in the UK and although they somehow manage to show that they run an on-time service, this week I have only travelled on one train that has arrived when it was supposed to (in the 9 journeys!)
There is now just a general apathy from the commuters - I spent a while just being angry every morning but it ends up just ruining your day, better just to accept that they are rubbish and go with the flow!
But that is never a reason not to fight them on every unfair penalty notice they dish out with extreme regularity.
cityboy -to be frank, you've had it.
you had no means to pay for your journey and were caught without a ticket, electron is not a means, whether you knew that or not, you 'couldn't pay' and had travelled.
cityboy -to be frank, you've had it.
you had no means to pay for your journey and were caught without a ticket, electron is not a means, whether you knew that or not, you 'couldn't pay' and had travelled.
Your comment above, besides being unhelpful to Cityboy's predicament, is wrong.
To gain a successful prosecution FCC have to prove intent. It is not sufficient to simply say as the traveller "couldn't pay" the case is proved. An electron card is a means of payment (and as an aside, it should be safer to accept than a general debit card as it will only authorised payment if the account has sufficient credit - yet this card does face discrimination by the railways, as we had one for our business and couldn't buy tickets with it either) so the traveller was offering to pay. To prove intent, any prosecutor has to prove a guilty mind - "mens rea" in legal shorthand.
FCC are very aggressive and will prosecute - on the basis that the majority will not contend the case - despite the fact that for stations smaller than, say Luton, St Albans or Bedford for example, buying of tickets is not made easy. And this is getting worse as they are currently in a Union dispute over reducing further booking office staff and opening hours.
Mens Rea can be relatively easy to prove however if the traveller had boarded at Luton and had arrived at Flitwick and had been stopped leaving the station. This is because the booking office was likely to have been open at Luton, shut at Flitwick, and the chap was leaving the station. The only defence, which circumstantially is a flimsy one, is that maybe his wallet was stolen and his intention was to write a cheque for his journey when he arrived home - even so he should have notified the booking office staff of his intention, and maybe even have left his name and address there at the time.
Your comment above, besides being unhelpful to Cityboy's predicament, is wrong.
To gain a successful prosecution FCC have to prove intent. It is not sufficient to simply say as the traveller "couldn't pay" the case is proved. An electron card is a means of payment (and as an aside, it should be safer to accept than a general debit card as it will only authorised payment if the account has sufficient credit - yet this card does face discrimination by the railways, as we had one for our business and couldn't buy tickets with it either) so the traveller was offering to pay. To prove intent, any prosecutor has to prove a guilty mind - "mens rea" in legal shorthand.
FCC are very aggressive and will prosecute - on the basis that the majority will not contend the case - despite the fact that for stations smaller than, say Luton, St Albans or Bedford for example, buying of tickets is not made easy. And this is getting worse as they are currently in a Union dispute over reducing further booking office staff and opening hours.
Mens Rea can be relatively easy to prove however if the traveller had boarded at Luton and had arrived at Flitwick and had been stopped leaving the station. This is because the booking office was likely to have been open at Luton, shut at Flitwick, and the chap was leaving the station. The only defence, which circumstantially is a flimsy one, is that maybe his wallet was stolen and his intention was to write a cheque for his journey when he arrived home - even so he should have notified the booking office staff of his intention, and maybe even have left his name and address there at the time.
It is not true to say that an Electron card is discriminated against by railways. The rules of issue and use of a debit card are provided in writing by the bank or card issuer not the railway companies. These rules make clear that such cards can only be used where there is electronic means of reading the credit available. You, as the provider of a service or goods have the right to decide what means of payment you will accept and the same is true of railways. For some people it may seem desireable that these debit cards should be accepted, but it is also impractical in some circumstances too and we are all obliged to play by the rules.
Secondly, to secure a conviction when someone is on a train without a valid ticket the rail companies do NOT need to prove intent. That is only relevent if the traveller is charged with 'intending to avoid payment' in breach of Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and only then is the travellers mens rea a relevent factor
The example quoted re the lost/stolen wallet and travel between Luton & Flitwick is a good one, but it is worth bearing in mind that just because a railway is available, you have no right to jump on a train and say 'I intended to pay later' in order to avoid prosecution. That one has been tried and found wanting by the courts many times in the past and there are many thousands of convictions on record to confirm it.
A person who does not have a valid ticket or means to pay does not have any right to get on a train.
In the case of FCC (and many others) they have a penalty fare scheme in operation. The railway, including platforms and overbridges, is therefore what is termed 'a controlled ticket area.' Where ticketing facilities are available every person entering that area must hold a valid ticket.
All the rail operator needs to do is show that the traveller was in the controlled ticket area and failed to show a valid ticket on demand in order to charge him with an allegation of a strict liability offence in accordance with Railway Byelaws 17 (2005).
This makes the matter much more straightforward, you either have a valid ticket or, you do not. If it is the latter then exceptional mitigating factors might sometimes be taken into account.
In the case of FCC (and many others) they have a penalty fare scheme in operation. The railway, including platforms and overbridges, is therefore what is termed 'a controlled ticket area.' Where ticketing facilities are available every person entering that area must hold a valid ticket.
All the rail operator needs to do is show that the traveller was in the controlled ticket area and failed to show a valid ticket on demand in order to charge him with an allegation of a strict liability offence in accordance with Railway Byelaws 17 (2005).
This makes the matter much more straightforward, you either have a valid ticket or, you do not. If it is the latter then exceptional mitigating factors might sometimes be taken into account.
However, the crux is whether Cityboy is to suffer prosecution or penalty. From his post he appears to fear that he will be prosecuted, however byelaw 24 (the strict liability offence) specifically excludes breaches of byelaw 17 (no ticket in a compulsory ticket area). This breach appears to only have the sanction indentified under byelaw 25 (interpretation).
For those who are following this thread, a strict liability offence is one where no guilty mind is needed. e.g. If you go through a red light you have automatically committed an offence unless you have been directed so to do by a constable in uniform or some other exemption. However, for something like handling stolen goods, mens rea has to be proved. e.g. If you buy a car which turns out to have been stolen, you are not liable to prosecution unless at the time you knew or believed the goods were stolen.
Terribly sorry to have appeared to be 'unhelpful' but the case was clear as far as I could see from the TOCs point of view:
Passenger HAD travelled, Passenger HAD NOT got a ticket, Passenger HAD NO MEANS to purchase a ticket.
Not a terribly difficult case to prove for the TOC, mitigating circumstances might be taken into account but IME I doubt it.
The problem from cityboys point is that it is THE PASSENGERS duty to check they have acceptable means of payment and to make sure they pay for the services used.
Since I thought (and still do) that the case is 95% in the TOCs favour and hardly worth arguing, I fail to see it being unhelpful to point out the blee*ing obvious.
Cautioned on First Capital Connect plz help
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Originally Posted by timbo58
