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Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Hello everyone,
The following is the story of my Car. I am now at the end of the road with Mercedes and need your help on how to proceed.
I purchased a Mercedes C230K with several extras in March 2002 for £32,000 on HP from Mercedes-Benz Finance. In the first couple of years it developed an electronic fault with the engineer cutting out and then in as it bump started itself. This was happening on motorways etc... and was rather frightening. It took the local dealer 3 attempts to fix the fault allegedly a wiring fault.
In December 2004 i.e. 4 months from the end of its warranty period, it developed another fault. The Engineer Management light came on and the car became sluggish. I had it into the local dealer who informed me the oxygen sensor needed replacing which they had done and the car was fine.
Over the next 3 years, the car has developed this same fault 14 times. Several oxygen sensors have been replaced, the intercooler, the supercharger and so on...
On the 7th fault, I contacted Mercedes directly in an attempt to have them sort out their obviously incapable Dealership. They assured me that the dealer would get the very best technical assistence Mercedes had.
On the 14th fault, they changed the compressor and I thought all was well. During this 3 years, I obviously couldn't sell the car as most people normally do in the 3rd/4th year but, as it wasn't costing me anything for them to continually repair, I was happy to allow them to do so.
5 months after the compressor was replaced however, the engine light is back on and the fault has re-occurred.
Following a conversation with Mercedes, it has now come out that at no time have the Dealership ever contacted Mercedes for support/help and have been winging it. I was, as you can appreciate, rather f'ed off with this and for the first time in all of this started to lose my rag a bit. It appears that Mercedes have no control over their dealers and can NOT force the dealer to have assistence even though it is clear they do not know what they are doing and dragging the Mercedes name through the mud.
At this point, I am no longer interested in having the dealership look at the car as they clearly can not fix it and will not ask for help. The car is clearly "one of them" and can not be repaired.
After the compressor was replaced, I was content to drive the car into the ground on "free motoring" as the equity in the car ca. £8k was of little use moving up "the ladder" in car terms. Following the re-occurrence of the fault, I am now seeking compensation for the 3 years enforced depreciation that I have suffered.
My understanding is this;
1. As I purchased the car on HP from Mercedes-Benz Finance, it is they who sold me the car and they who are liable under the Consumer Act and the SOGA.
2. Under the Sale of Goods Act, the car is not fit for purpose as a Sports Coupe (with limited HP due to the Engine Management system).
3. Under the Sale of Goods Act it is most certainly NOT reasonably reliable having developed 18 major Engine faults in 6 years.
I my opinion, a new prestige motor car of £32,000 cost should have a lifespan of between 10-15 years. It is clear that this vehicle is not fit for purpose as a car, never mind a sports coupe and has reached the end of it's "life" well before one could reasonably expect. I also think it would have been completely unreasonable to have returned the car and demanded a new one when it first developed the fault as is suggested by many documents on the internet. The car cost £32k and surely handing it back would be unreasonable. All the advice seems to concern used cars of much lesser value from second hand dealers. In this case, the car is new and is dead well before it's time.
I have calculated that I have lost about £9k in depreciation over the 3 years Mercedes-Benz have been failing to fix my car. As I now want the thing replaced, I will obviously lose money on the trade-in as well.
What do you guys think? Are there any sources of advice for new cars or precedents on this?
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Hi,
If I were you I would get an independant engineer to fully check the engine and control system before quoting SOGA to the dealer.
Sounds like your local dealership mechanics are a bunch of idiots.
Just because it says Mercedes above the door don't expect the creme de la creme of mechanics.
I would talk to another dealership and have them inspect the vehicle and ask them if the previous work has been done and to the correct standard.
If not you have grounds against your dealership, I suspect they have just been bodging your car. I've seen shocking dealership work on many "prestige" motors in my time, BMW especially.
Why was the intercooler replaced ?
Was it leaking or blocked ?
As those are the only viable reasons it could be replaced other than have a collision that is.
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
I've no idea why anything was done to it other than "oil in the system". They've never given me any documentation about what was done etc... as it was all under warranty.
My business is refrigeration and I know that many compressors have oil in them. The compressor which was replaced on the 14th go was where I would have started had I been in their shoes but I suspect they just put the laptop on and replaced the sensor like the diagnostics told them to rather than think about where the oil was coming from.
I don't even know what an intercooler is or does. All I know is that 14 times I have been driving round like an old man with Grannies in 1.0L 1994 Fiesta's burning me off.
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Sell it! cut your loses.
After 6 years you will be tied up in knots soting out all the records, correspondance, getting info. etc. People have moved on cant remember. lifes too short and too stressful!
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
@AngryMercOwner:
The SOGA 1979 as amended in 2003 if now far more reaching and furthermore it now includes the right to claim damages etc up to 6 yrs,below is a copy of the finer points of the amended act which all finance company's will now have to take heed as well as other organisations including dealers!!.
Consumer Sales Directive & the Sale of Goods Act
SUBJECT
Sale of Goods Rights, Faulty Goods, Poor Service.
RELEVANT OR RELATED LEGISLATION
Sale of Goods Act 1979. Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations (following 31/3/03 transposition of Directive 1999/44/EC).
KEY FACTS
1. Rights have been enhanced when the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations was implemented on 31 March 2003.
2. The Regulations transpose EC Directive 1999/44/EC on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees.
3. Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).
4. If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale a consumer can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances).
5. For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) consumers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).
6. At present, the onus is on consumers to prove the good did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).
7. Now consumers have a six months reversed burden of proof and a right to seek a repair, replacement and a partial or full refund.
The following are subject to the transposition of the Directive 1999/44/EC via the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations on 31 March 2003:
8. If the consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty).
9. After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.
10. If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if the fault has meant that they have had only some benefit from the goods.
11. If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can claim a full refund, if the fault has meant that the consumer has enjoyed no benefit from the goods.
12. Where retailers or manufacturers offer free guarantees or warranties, the Regulations provide that they will now be legally binding.
13. The guarantees must also be written in plain English, must be available for viewing by consumers on request before purchase and must state that they do not affect the consumer's legal rights.
14. The Regulations do not impose an obligation on retailers or manufacturers to offer guarantees nor do they apply to extended warranties, which have to be purchased by the consumers.
15. The consumer has exactly the same rights with second hand goods as he does with new, however, with older goods it is increasingly difficult for the consumer to prove that a fault was inherent at the time of sale and the conformity criteria also allow second hand goods to be judged less rigorously than new.
Just for the record i have many similar problems with my vehicle a 06 Mercedes C180K Avantgarde auto supposedly used approved it had done only 9700 miles when i purchased it sept 07 and @13,700 now it is has cost somewhere in the region of £2,500.00 in 8 months and warranty repairs in short it keeps going Kapput!!.
Customer service even at head office UK level is nigh on non exsistant, i've even tried to exchange it under there 30 day plan it falls on deaf ears.
Best Regards.
CaLL Me On INTeRNeT CaLLS @ "NoBBY_ONLiNE"
NB: Any advice given ?(if any) is given freely and without constraints,it and any information is based upon personal knowledge and personal experiences and/or views it should therefore only be regarded as advice and not a statement of the law, for that you should seek professional legal advice!.
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Hi v_j_r, thanks for that.
Are we saying that there is now a definition that any product, in this case a car, has a 6 year life span and after that you're stuffed? Surely a Prestige car should be expected to last 10 years or more and during that time be repairable. In my case, the car clearly can not be repaired and developed the fault during it's warranty period. The patience I have shown to both Mercedes and the Dealer should surely not count against me.
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Perhaps, I'm not too sure about that but in any case, the fault developed during the warrranty period and can not be repaired. As they have spent 3 years trying to rectify all free of charge i.e. accepting liability, the fault is clearly theirs.
Looking at the history of this model on review/auto websites, it seems the model has many occurences of this fault. Therefore, it must have been there when the car was produced or many different people from different parts of the country and different driving styles have all done the same thing to their car.
In terms of the SOGA, this product is NOT reasonably reliable. Surely, as a consumer, I am protected from this outrageous level of poor workmanship on such an expensive item.
As for the "6 months", surely a product must be covered by this for at least the term of the product's Warranty.
I've had a look for something regarding the warranty but found little. What happens when a product can not be repaired? Am I in a position to demand a replacement?
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Well, should the finance firm not help you out my suggestion would be to exercise your voluntary termination clause under s99 of the act.
You have the right to terminate and end your agreement under Section 99 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 at any time before your last instalment is due, although you will have lost the right to terminate your agreement if the creditor has already terminated it or if the full balance of the agreement has become payable.
If you decide to terminate your agreement voluntarily and hand back the goods to the creditor, you should only have to pay up to half of the total amount payable under the agreement, minus sums that you have paid and sums that are due. Sums that you have paid include any deposit plus the instalments that you have paid; sums due are any arrears/missed payments due at the time of termination.
INFORMATION
The one half or 50% figure is stated on the agreement in the box headed 'Termination: Your Rights'.
You will then also owe any arrears/missed payments plus damages if you have failed to take reasonable care of the goods (over and above normal wear and tear). The creditor might argue that there will be an extra charge for damage or unusual wear and tear. It is important to look at any charges to see if they are reasonable.
It is very important that you tell your creditor in writing that you are terminating and ending your agreement. If you do not terminate in writing the creditor will not treat it as a voluntary termination and you will not be able to benefit from the 50% limit on your liability. Keep a copy of the letter of your termination in case you need proof of this later.
WARNING
You may have a default notice sent to you by the creditor because you are behind with the payments on your agreement. Once the time has run out on the default notice this may mean you have lost the right to end the agreement voluntarily and return the goods yourself. It depends upon your agreement. Your creditor may have called in or 'terminated' the agreement when the default notice runs out. Some agreements say another notice to terminate the agreement has to be sent to you after the default notice has run out.
WARNING
You do not need to have actually paid the 50% to be able to terminate your agreement, although some creditors say you do. All that is necessary is for you to give notice to the creditor in writing that you are terminating the agreement.
Also, where a hire purchase agreement contains a separate subsidiary agreement for insurance products (e.g. for payment protection insurance and/or a guarantee or warranty), it is not necessary to pay off this agreement before terminating the hire purchase agreement.
WARNING
Terminating/ending your hire purchase agreement does not terminate a subsidiary insurance agreement. You will remain liable to pay it.
Some creditors try to charge you for collecting the goods after the agreement has been terminated. It appears that this is not allowed under the Consumer Credit Act. If asked to pay an additional charge, you can complain to your trading standards department.
Your agreement may say that you have to return the goods to your original supplier or somewhere similar. You should not be asked to return the goods further away than is reasonable on the grounds of cost and distance.
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
The agreement ended 3 years ago(ish).
My problem is that my £32k prestige sports car developed a fault under warranty which can not be repaired and during the 3 years I have been patient, I have lost £9k in depreciation alone.
Had the dealership asked for technical assistance, perhaps the fault would now be repaired but they didn't. I had thought, following the last repair, that the car was now fine and was happy to drive it into the ground as "cheap" motoring but... the fault has re-occurred.
Surely a prestige car or any product costing £30000 should have a reasonable life span, not have an unrepairable fault within its warranty period.
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Originally Posted by AngryMercOwner
The agreement ended 3 years ago(ish).
sorry, for some reason i thought you were still paying.
My problem is that my £32k prestige sports car developed a fault under warranty which can not be repaired and during the 3 years I have been patient, I have lost £9k in depreciation alone.
i'm no expert and i'm sure someone with more knowledge than me will be over soon. Although the warranty has expired I'm sure the fault would still be covered until finally sorted as it was raised whilst the warranty was in place. I shall ask someone with more knowledge to come in and take a look at this thread.
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
They are more than happy to keep repairing the fault under warranty but I'm no longer happy to let them screwing it up. I have run out of patience with them.
They have had 15 goes at repairing this fault and have failed 15 times now. At what point does it become a total failure and a "swapout"?
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Don't forget that the depreciation will include the vat so there was a price drop of 17.5% the moment you drove out the door, so it has only lost around £3000, not bad in six years.
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Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Originally Posted by Conniff
Don't forget that the depreciation will include the vat so there was a price drop of 17.5% the moment you drove out the door, so it has only lost around £3000, not bad in six years.
3 years ago, the car was worth about £16k. It is now worth £7k. That's £9k of depreciation.
VAT does not apply to second hand goods unless there is a profit involved. Therefore, if I sold the Car 3 years ago, I would have got £16k. Now, I would only get £7k and VAT is irrelevant.
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
I am assuming from your original post that you purchased the car new in which case you paid vat on it.
I have had a look around the net at a lot of dealers and 7-9k is around the average being asked so it is the type of car that has made it depreciate (plus next year the tax will be in excess of £400).
The purchase price will always be less than the sale price as they have to add valeting and profit etc.
Anyway, that is getting away from the original problem.
I would be getting on to Mercedes in the hope that they can push 'their' dealer into doing something about it with a copy of any correspondence to the dealer.
You could always ask if you are required to go to the newspapers etc to get satisfaction.
Trading Standards wants your help
Dubious website businesses Conterfeit alcohol and cigarettes Illegal sales of alcohol, tobacco, knives & fireworks to children Cowboy builders or tradesmen Car clockers Counterfeiters Aggressive selling
Never phone or accept phonecalls from debt collection companies.
If you don't believe you can win, there is no point in getting out of bed.
_________________________ ________________ _________________________ ___________________
Re: Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
Originally Posted by Conniff
I am assuming from your original post that you purchased the car new in which case you paid vat on it.
Yes, it was new. However, the "depreciation" due to VAT happens instantly. The depreciation I am referring to is years 3 to 6 when the car dropped from £16k to £7k. The trade in value to me from a dealer is money in my hand. 3 years ago, it would have been 16, now it is 7. I have lost 9k of value/money in the bank. VAT is irrelevant as that particular "depreciation" happened upon purchasing the vehicle.
Originally Posted by Conniff
I have had a look around the net at a lot of dealers and 7-9k is around the average being asked so it is the type of car that has made it depreciate (plus next year the tax will be in excess of £400).
Most cars have a significant drop in value when they come out of warranty. That is why many people change cars quickly after that happens. In my case, I couldn't get rid of it due to the ongoing problems.
Originally Posted by Conniff
The purchase price will always be less than the sale price as they have to add valeting and profit etc.
I bought the car for £32k. I would now trade it in for 7k. I make no profit therefore VAT does not apply. Also, I am a private individual and VAT does not apply, I can not charge it. I don't understand why you keep going on about VAT, it's irrelevant.
Originally Posted by Conniff
Anyway, that is getting away from the original problem.
Agreed
Originally Posted by Conniff
I would be getting on to Mercedes in the hope that they can push 'their' dealer into doing something about it with a copy of any correspondence to the dealer.
You could always ask if you are required to go to the newspapers etc to get satisfaction.
As per my initial post, Mercedes themselves are powerless to enforce any kind of policy that ensures Dealerships provide a certain standard of service. Their policy is this;
If a dealership has a vehicle in for the same fault 3 times, they recommend that the dealer seeks Mercedes-Benz Technical Assistance.
The dealership had my car in 7 times under the supervision of Mercedes-Benz who I contacted directly. At no point did they seek Technical Assistance as proscribed by MB "policy". I asked what they would do about that if I were to let them have my car yet again and their response was of course the party line which has been ignored 11 times, 5 of which Mercedes knew about because the fault went directly through them. Go figure.
In short, MB have no control over the quality of their dealers and no interest in sorting out those who drag the MB name through the mud. They have allowed this dealer to have 15 attempts to repair a fault and have not taken over proceedings or forced the dealer to accept help. Why? Because they can't.
I have written a couple of letters to MB Finance (the HP Company) which is in progress. Their initial response was that they "only provide financial services" and that they "did not sell me a car". This came from the supervisor which just shows the level of people you have to deal with. In the end, I had to read the following from the Trading Standards website Trading Standards Central - Consumer Advice Leaflets (see Hire Purchase section).
Car Bought New 18 faults in 6 years - advice please
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Originally Posted by AngryMercOwner
