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I recently got a promotion to 'engineer' from a 'junior engineer', salary got increased to £35k from £30k
A new guy recently started as 'junior engineer' but have found out his on £35k, the same as me.
My new contract says I'm above them and can assign work to them (junior engineers) etc
I want to raise this with my manager but have few issues
1) Is discussing pay with each other a gross misconduct offense etc? contract letter says 'strictly confidential' on it as don't want to get in trouble if I raise it with him.
2) Should I expect to be paid more than someone lower than me legally or can they do what they want?
3) Best way to bring this issue up? don't want to sound like I'm demanding an increase but doesn't seem fair.
1) if the deem salaries to be strictly confidential, then it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that discussing salaries could be classed as gross misconduct; certainly a disciplinary matter.
2) they can do what they want unless there is a published pay scale that they are not following (which I doubt in light of 1). Think about it - how many junior managers earn more that senior hands/foremen?
3) I wouldn't bother - you are laying both of you open to disciplinary proceedings if the company so wish.
Heard some talk of this on the radio today, it sounded like some companies will view the issue of disclosing one anothers salaries as Gross Misconduct, so unless you are on a sure footing ie you can prove that :
a) You have a better skill, and therefore should command a higher wage than the junior.
or
b) The junior cannot be left unsupervised and therefore you have to give direction, and are imparting with your skill and knowledge, which is really proveing that you are worth more.
Then I would leave well alone until it is time for your annual payrise where you could negotiate a bit harder, without letting on that you know, what you know so to speak.
1) if the deem salaries to be strictly confidential, then it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that discussing salaries could be classed as gross misconduct; certainly a disciplinary matter.
Rubbish.
The OP has disclosed he is aware of a subordinate being on the same money as him. He has not disclosed how he knows this. It could have easily been a passing comment over a pint with the junior where he revealed he was on the same wage.
That is not misconduct but it would obviously warrant questions being asked and rightly so.
2) they can do what they want unless there is a published pay scale that they are not following (which I doubt in light of 1). Think about it - how many junior managers earn more that senior hands/foremen?
Depends on what the company operate their wage scale on.
Eg, a new football player to a club maybe on £50,000 a week yet a counterpart in the same position who has been at the club for 10 years is on £20,000.
Nothing illegal about that.
3) I wouldn't bother - you are laying both of you open to disciplinary proceedings if the company so wish.
Of course it is worth bothering with-£5k is a lot of money. And why on earth would somebody be disciplined for this?
1) if the deem salaries to be strictly confidential, then it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that discussing salaries could be classed as gross misconduct; certainly a disciplinary matter.
.
Why should salaries be strictly confidential? unless the company has something to hide. If you earned that money then why shouldn't you have the right to discuss it with your fellow workers if you wish
HALIFAX: 13/01/07 Sent S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) letter (marked as rec'd 16/01)
Paid in full in March 07
Why should salaries be strictly confidential? unless the company has something to hide. If you earned that money then why shouldn't you have the right to discuss it with your fellow workers if you wish
I agree. There is a whole host of ways one has to disclose earnings to a third party.
mortgage, Income protection, credit cards, hire purchase, tax office....
And Equal Pay legislation would be useless as companies would just insist on confidentiality.
Exactly, what nonsense, gross misconduct for discussing your salary whatever next??!!
If someone voluntarily tells you their salary, how is that gross misconduct?
This is a typical employer tactic, threaten staff with gross misconduct for anything they see fit whether it has any basis in employment law or not. Weird Al has hit upon the main reason, the fear of suspect employers being taken on over an equal pay claim.
I would suggest the OP approaches his manager informally at first and points out the unfairness and if this doesn't work then raise it through the companies grievance procedure.
I have worked for a number of companies that have explicitly said that discussing salary or bonus was gross misconduct.
I have also been in the position of managing people who earned more than I did for various reasons. That also is not uncommon and there is nothing unlawful about it. It does make a good bargaining point when asking for a pay rise but there is no innate right to earn more than people more junior to yourself.
It is only an issue if the reason you earn less is a discriminatory one.
I have worked for a number of companies that have explicitly said that discussing salary or bonus was gross misconduct.
And just how would this sit for the employer at an ET hearing for an Equal Pay claim if, for example, a woman inadvertantly found out her male colleague was paid more for doing the same job?
And because she raised an ET claim over this issue the employer, logically, would also have fired her for gross misconduct for obviously discussing salary?
I have also been in the position of managing people who earned more than I did for various reasons. That also is not uncommon and there is nothing unlawful about it. It does make a good bargaining point when asking for a pay rise but there is no innate right to earn more than people more junior to yourself.
Nobody is saying it is unlawful. What we are saying is that the OP has a genuine concern with which to approach his employers about.
It may just be an oversight and will be corrected or maybe the OP's grade has had a salary increase but he has been overlooked by mistake. It could be anything but the important thing here is that the OP has a genuine concern.
It is only an issue if the reason you earn less is a discriminatory one.
Not necessarily. The reason the OP is earning the same as a junior could be due to a mistake. How will the OP ever know unless he seeks clarification? And the OP would only find out if this situation is indeed discriminatory by asking.
Which brings us back to the whole point we have raised. The OP knows he is being paid the same as a junior and needs to clarify the situation.
To not do so for fear of gross misconduct is quite ridiculous.
In most cases it would be easy for an employer to come up with a good business case why salaries should be kept secret. In my industry it is not unusual to have to pay "over the odds" to bring in a specific skill you need, yet you cannot afford to bring everyone's pay in line.
I don't see why the employer is not entitled to say that discussing salaries is gross misconduct. I don't see that they ET would necessarily disagree. Okay so dismissal for such an offence would be harsh, but a disciplinary hearing could be in order. Let's at least agree that there is plenty of evidence on this forum of people being dismissed for much less serious actions.
However for it to be so it would have to be deliberate, so if you find out accidentally what someone else was earning then you would be safe.
Nonetheless what really matters in this situation is not the legal position but the perception of the firm. It is all very well winning a case for unfair dismissal in the ET, but it is much better not to get dismissed in the first place. If the company does regard it as a serious matter, you would risk damaging your career by letting them know that you have found out.
It's not unusual in the NHS to have a senior earning less than a junior, there are many cases where nurses gain promotion to the band above and are therefore line managers but earn less then the juniors they are responsible for as the juniors may have longer service within the NHS and the bands overlap, if a new junior is appointed they bring their length of service and thus salary with them. Even within the same band the person with longest length of service and therefore highest pay will not necessarily be 'in charge' on a shift, many time's over the years I have supervised people on more money than me I doesn't seem fair but is apparently legal
Confidentiality agreements are a very blunt tool and are rarely enforceable. They result in little but allegations of unfair pay agreements and worse, discrimination claims where two people of different sexes doing the same job, are paid differing amounts. Far better for an employer to have a transparent pay scale and grading system which rewards length of service, skills and value to the business.
Whilst there is nothing illegal in paying different rates, and it is possible to have a junior manager earning more than a senior, providing that this does not fall foul of equal pay legalities, it is clearly not good business practice and breeds a culture of resentment and suspicion.
Disciplinary action for breaching a confidentiality agreement over pay, would almost certainly be unfair, and a lack of discretion would perhaps be more likely to result in being overlooked for future promotion, as there may be a worry that you can't be trusted with confidential information.
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Whilst there is nothing illegal in paying different rates, and it is possible to have a junior manager earning more than a senior, providing that this does not fall foul of equal pay legalities, it is clearly not good business practice and breeds a culture of resentment and suspicion.
Which is one of the reasons I think that employers don't like wages been discussed.
I remember watching a programme on BBC a while back called something like 'what britain earns' in which the reporter said that the UK is one of the few countries where discussing your pay is considered a taboo subject.
In fact the appraisel meetings we (are supposed to) have every month are held in private with a supervisor so no-one else knows what points you havebeen given towards your bonus. In fact on a previous meeting I had the discussion stopped when another supervisor came into the office..
HALIFAX: 13/01/07 Sent S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) letter (marked as rec'd 16/01)
Paid in full in March 07
Unless you have signed the official secrets act there is no way discussing salary can be deemed to be gross misconduct and if this is stated in T&C's then it is there as a scare tactic.
What next, gross misconduct for discussing the price of coffee in the companies vending machine?
Unless you have signed the official secrets act there is no way discussing salary can be deemed to be gross misconduct and if this is stated in T&C's then it is there as a scare tactic.
What next, gross misconduct for discussing the price of coffee in the companies vending machine?
I signed the Official Secrets Act as a postman but I don't recall wages being included.
It was mostly to not discuss sensitive data that passes through from Govt Depts where the envelope may break open with everything then able to read.
In any case, when posties go on strike it is invariably about wages and they are disclosed to the public by the press, tv news, union leaflets etc
Salary same as someone I'm above - Legal?
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Originally Posted by patdavies
I doesn't seem fair but is apparently legal 
