Thread: Finlander V Firstplus

OK... here goes... had a secured loan with FP. paid it off when I got married and moved. SAR sent about 3 weeks ago and arrived within 2 weeks. found that I had a £5950 premium. No call logs or transcripts sent.

Sent this letter to them


Dear Sir/Madam,

RE ; AGREEMENT NO- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


I am writing to request that the Payment Protection Insurance sold at the time the above loan was taken out is refunded in full to me, and that interest, which has accrued to date, be similarly refunded. The amount of the insurance amounts to £5979.00p, the interest owed to date amounts to £ 1488.72p. This is based on this policy being miss-sold and the standard interest rate of 8% charged by the county court.

The total I wish refunded is £7467.72p

My reasons for reclaiming are:

1.At no time was I told that PPI could be purchased elsewhere to cover the loan


2. It was not made clear that the insurance was only valid for the first five years of the loan - in fact the first time this became apparent was on receipt of the information requested about the account under the Data Protection Act.


3. I was led to believe that Payment Protection Insurance was compulsory and indeed was misled into thinking that I would stand more chance of getting the loan if I took the Payment Protection Insurance


4. It was not explained to me that there were certain exclusions within the policy that could affect me.

5. The Payment Protection Insurance was added to the loan balance at the outset and at no time was it explained that there were PPI policies where one could pay monthly for substantially lower premiums and which would cover my clients for the whole term of the loan.


6. The terms & conditions of the insurance were not fully explained

7. At the time of taking out the insurance I already had in force, and had for a number of years, a insurance policy from my work to cover me against, accident, illness or death. The agent selling the insurance made no enquiries into this.

8. The agent told me that the insurance policy was in fact a very good way of saving, as half the premium would be refunded in five years. He did not explain that this was the term of the insurance. He did not explain that the entire premium was added to the loan and that no refund would be available if settled early.

I believe that this policy was miss-sold. I require you to make all necessary investigations into this matter and would request the above sum is refunded to me immediately.

The above amount does not include interest paid to your company on the insurance premium whilst the loan was running. If it becomes necessary to take this matter further these sums will also be reclaimed increasing your liability. As a matter of goodwill I am not requesting them at this time.

I notice as well that within my Subject access request I asked for all transcripts of phone calls. These have not been provided. If these do in fact exist and I find that they have been withheld I shall of course be complaining to the Data Commissioners office.

I would be grateful if you could respond quickly to this complaint and when you do, if your answer is in the negative, can you clearly state that is your final response.

This will then allow me to pass the complaint on quickly to the Financial Ombudsman.

Please respond within 6 weeks of receipt of this letter.

I reserve the right to commence legal action at anytime to recover the above monies.

Yours truly,


Have received a response saying they are looking into it and trying to locate transcripts of calls and tape copies and will let me know by 22nd April.

Anyone else had dealings with these people and can give me a heads up on their tactics?


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Morning Finlander,
Looks like you are in the same boat as myself, although we have the two claims ongoing.
Can I assume your response date is 22nd May, not April, if so, it's going to be interesting waiting to see who gets a response first.
Every time I read the SAR documentation or listen to our tapes, we seem to get another nail to hammer into the coffin.

Looks like it's gonna be a busy month at First Plus!

okay... firstplus replied today. Basically their letter says that he has listened to the tapes (I havnt even got them yet) and that he says the policy wasn't miss-sold!!! well thats cleared that up then! Well done Firstplus..HOOrah. The most important part is that he says that they didn't need to ask any questions about previous medical conditions of other insurance as they weren't regulated by the FSA in Nov 2004 so didn't need to ask 'demands and needs questions'. Is this true? It seems that what they are saying is 'As we werent regulated by any sort of authority we were entitled to rip you off' . Looking at their terms set through they were regulated by GISC however. I have tried to look up the GISC code of conduct but it keeps taking me to a website to sell me car insurance.

So the urgent questions I have for my fellow CAGERS are -

1. will the fos investigate?

2. where can I get a copy of the GISC code?

3. Is it true that they didn't have to ask ny questions?

4. What now?

thanks for that... I was hoping someone would giva a bit of moral support and as usual CAG come up trumps.

let me see what to do now..... ok I have sent this by email to mr Mullins.


Dear Mr Mullins,
Thank you for your letter of the 16th May 2008 outlining your rejection of my complaint and the reasons that you felt it was unfounded. I am replying in email but shall also be sending this letter in hard copy. You may reply if you wish by email or letter.
I have considered your response and consider it to be unfair, self serving and to a great extent not backed up by any evidence of due care. I consider it particularly interesting that in response to my contention that no effort was made by your company to confirm my eligibility for this policy you respond by stating this was not done as you weren’t regulated by the FSA! How interesting that will sound in court, ‘Your honour we were not regulated by the FSA at the time so were perfectly entitled to mislead and con Mr Pearce into buying a policy that neither covered him or he needed for 569 times the monthly rate of the next best policy’.
I have already outlined my concerns in my first letter and have no intention of listing them again. All I will say is each point is still of concern and I feel you have addressed none of them.
My actions now will be the following ;-
1. I shall send an official complaint to the fos.
2. I have today written requesting a full copy of the GISC codes of conduct (which your company was bound by)
3. I have written to various Media companies and their consumer affairs shows today outlining my concerns at the outrageous premium charged by you. As a matter of interest I received a quote for PPI today covering the amount borrowed of £30,000 and it came to £10.51p a month for the period of the loan! That would mean 569 months just to catch up with your premium let alone the interest you charged!
4. I have sent your responses, my Subject access request information and various supporting documentation to my solicitor with a view to commencing legal action immediately should the FOS refuse to investigate the complaint.
I would like you to send me all copies of audio tapes you have regarding this account immediately. I do not wish CD’s etc just simple audio cassettes of all phone conversations between myself and your representatives.
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for your quick reply. However I hope you will now understand that I have no intention of just going away. I believe that your company has acted in a highly dishonest matter in selling me this insurance and I really urge you to understand that you have been ‘rumbled’. I intend to take this matter as far as possible in order to ensure that justice is done. In the court action that may follow I will be requesting a full breakdown of your premium , sales commission etc in order to prove your staffs vested interest in selling a grossly over priced product.
May I remind you that the burden of proof in relation to Misrepresentation Act claims:

That a customer should be able to rely on the information given, and that even without an intent to misrepresent, if the consequences of a misrepresentation are such that a customer is disadvantaged then that is enough.

It also establishes that a clause in a contract which states that a signature indicates full acceptance is not valid where it would be unlikely that the customer would have the skill and inclination to go through the fine detail. As shown in Howard Marine V A Ogden (1975)
Then there is the concealed commission agreement in Hurstanger v Wilson [2007] EWCA Civ 299 , which states;
It was held that the broker may only receive commission if the borrower
consented to this with full knowledge of all material circumstances. The
Court of Appeal held that the commission, in this case, was not ""secret""
but informed consent had not been given as the amount of commission
had not been disclosed. (Accordingly they awarded the amount of the
commission plus 1.29% simple interest from the date of the agreement’’s
inception).

The Court also held that in cases where the broker does not disclose
that she is in receipt of commission from the lender, the commission
will be ""secret"", the broker potentially guilty of fraud, and the entire
loan liable to be rescinded.

Implications

The legal teams of all members who pay commission to brokers should
consider the impact of the decision on their business.

Another interesting document regarding conflicts of interest comes from the Chartered Insurance Institute. It is guidance for members on dealing with potential conflicts of interest, and whilst it is not binding on loan companies, the document must be seen as a very authoritative view of potential conflicts of interest and the risk to customers where those conflicts are not properly managed.

Of particular note is this paragraph on mitigating potential conflicts:Some examples of methods which can be used to manage potential conflicts include:
· a hospitality and/or gift register;
· restrictions on gifts and hospitality individuals may accept;
· information barriers or ‘‘chinese walls’’ between different business units to prevent free flow of confidential information;
· changes to remuneration arrangements for the firm and individual staff to avoid incentives and targets which may encourage misuse of information or giving poor advice;
· increasing disclosure to clients and obtaining informed consents from them;
· information systems designed to provide timely and accurate information;
· reporting structures to build in checks and balances to promote objective judgement;
· recording of and justification for decisions when selecting products or suppliers;
· documenting why and how recommendations are being made to customers;
· complaints handling and claims settlement procedures.
I would particularly draw your attention to the advice regarding remuneration.
I now also intend to claim for all interest paid on the premium as well as the statutory 8% allowed by the county court.
As for making a complaint through your club the FLA I notice at least one interesting paragraph from their code -


1.1 As full members of the Finance & Leasing
Association (FLA), we promise we will:
™act fairly, reasonably and responsibly in all our
dealings with you;

™ act honestly and try to make sure that credit
brokers, and all other suppliers of goods and
services we do business with, do the same;

™ train our staff to make sure that the procedures
they follow reflect the commitments set out
in this code; and

Speaks volumes really, especially as this term is compulsory, but I will leave my search for recompense to the FOS and the courts.

Yours sincerely ,




WELL THERE YOU GO...THEY STARTED IT!!!!

thanks for everyones support. Well the email went off and we shall se what the loan sharks say. I hope they understand that I have every intention of taking this as far as it will go.

complaint form sent of to fos and copy emailed to Mr Mullins at Firstplus. Not sure if they will investigate due to it being 2004 but have to give it a go before the court route.

Hello finlander,

I have spoken to a member of the fos and he said the FOS would look at complaints within the 6 year Statute so give it a shot.

You can find all the details of the FOS in the links thread in stickies, but if you need more detail just shout I have already got complaints lodged with the ICO, FOS, OFT, FSA, British Bankers Association and yes the Royal Mail for losing 33% of my complaints to the others.

Keep at it and good luck

aa

got a letter form FP today saying that they were looking into my complaint again.

Well.... FP have written back saying they have looked into my complaint and decided they are still in the right. However as a gesture of good will they will refund 78% of my premium on a 'pro-rata' basis. this comes to £2400 quid according to them!!!! the premium was £5979 so I cant see how that works!!! also they say they are keeping the 22% back for admin and future claims. How? the policy and loan are both paid off!! well as you can imagine Im going to tell them to swivell. I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!!!!!

Finlander,

This is standard reply number 4 (lol) as it is word for word what I received from them - except for the amount. It shows how much they have actually read or noticed about your claim that they are keeping monies back for future claims when the loan and the PPI have been settled.

Basically taking as much care with your complaint as they took with looking after our interests at the start of the loan. No wonder no-one is surprised by it.

ok this sent to the nice conmen at Fp today....


Dear Sir,

I have received your companies final response to the above complaint and your offer of a ‘goodwill’ payment of £XXXX.

After considering your offer for a lengthy period (of approx 10 seconds) I wish now to formally refuse that offer. I find the offer, when my original premium was £5979.00p, both derisory and insulting.

When I first started to complain about you company I hoped that you would have shown some sort of honesty in admitting that you had made a mistake in selling this policy and reimbursing my money. However, as seems usual these days with financial institutions, it has not taken long for your company to descend to the moral level of the back street ‘Spiv’.

Let us examine the facts. Whilst selling a policy that was 579 times more expensive than the next best deal you claim that it is not your responsibility to ensure that the product is right for the customer or even that it covers him if he ever had to claim on it. Your reason for this is that you were not regulated at the time. No moral imperative? No sense of professional standards? No sense that you should be abiding by the code that you agreed to be bound by when you joined the CGIS and the FLA?
Instead it appears to be First Plus’s policy that the money is more important than the customer or his needs.

I reject totally you offer.

Previously I delayed my complaint to the fos after you asked for an opportunity to re-investigate my complaint (what a fool I was).

I have today made a formal complaint to the FOS.

Should this prove unsatisfactory, by that I mean I receive anything less than my premium plus interest amounting to £7467.72p, I will be starting legal action against your company.

I fully intend to expose your sharp business practices to the harsh light of public scrutiny. Your insurance services seem little removed from a protection racket or the cowboy who re-tarmacs old ladies drives. I look forward with relish to asking for full disclosure of those practices including the profit margin on each policy.


As I stated before I have no intention of going away. Your company owes me money and I intend to do some damage to your name in a court of law if necessary to recover it.


Yours truly,



how day like dem apples.....

this to the FOS....



our ref

reference






complaint form


Please use this form to tell us about your complaint – so we can see if we’re able to help you.
If you’re not sure about anything – or have any difficulties filling in this form – just phone us on 0845 080 1800.

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first, please give us your details …and the details of anyone complaining with you
surname
FINLANDER
title MR

title
first name(s)
XXXXX

occupation (if retired, previous occupation)
XXXXXXXXX

date of birth
XX/XX/XXXX


address for
writing to you
(include postcode)
XXXXXX
XXXXX
XXXX
XX




daytime phone
XXXXXXXX
mobile
home phone
XXXXXXXX
email





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its annual turnover, annual income or net asset value (at the time you first complained) *
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* We will need to see evidence of this. If it’s over £1 million, sorry, we won’t be able to help you.

For a business – please attach a list of any other businesses that form part of the group and/or a list of the partners (if run as a partnership).


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their name

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ref




details of the business you think is responsible for your complaint


their name
FIRSTPLUS Financial Group Plc
their address
(include postcode)

The Avenue Business Park
Pentwyn

Cardiff
CF23 8FF
their phone number





details of the adviser or business who originally sold the product or service
you’re complaining about (if different from the name above)


their name
FIRSTPLUS Financial Group Plc
their address
(include postcode)

The Avenue Business Park
Pentwyn

Cardiff
CF23 8FF
their phone number




the kind of product or service you’re complaining about
please tell us the
name and type of the
product or service
PAYMENT PROTECTION INSURANCE

… and any reference number you have – for example:
your account (or loan/hire agreement) number and
sort code or your policy number or your claim number

Ref ; XXXXXXX Account Number ; XXXXX



please tell us what your complaint is about

1.At no time was I told that PPI could be purchased elsewhere to cover the loan


2. It was not made clear that the insurance was only valid for the first five years of the loan - in fact the first time this became apparent was on receipt of the information requested about the account under the Data Protection Act.


3. I was led to believe that Payment Protection Insurance was compulsory and indeed was misled into thinking that I would stand more chance of getting the loan if I took the Payment Protection Insurance


4. It was not explained to me that there were certain exclusions within the policy that could affect me.

5. The Payment Protection Insurance was added to the loan balance at the outset and at no time was it explained that there were PPI policies where one could pay monthly for substantially lower premiums and which would cover my clients for the whole term of the loan.


6. The terms & conditions of the insurance were not fully explained

7. At the time of taking out the insurance I already had in force, and had for a number of years, a insurance policy from my work to cover me against, accident, illness or death. The agent selling the insurance made no enquiries into this. The agent also made on enquiries into previous medical conditions, which might render the policy, invalid. I have suffered with an injury to my back sustained at work and documented by my doctor.

8. The agent told me that the insurance policy was in fact a very good way of saving, as half the premium would be refunded in five years. He did not explain that this was the term of the insurance. He did not explain that the entire premium was added to the loan and that no refund would be available if settled early. They also misrepresented the ‘saving’ potential as they would pay no interest on the premium but I would have to pay interest to them. This was outrageous miss-representation as this could no way be described as ‘a good way of saving’

9. As a serving XXXXXX it is not possible for me to be made redundant by law. I do not believe that the insurance sold had any relevance to my situation.

10. First plus have failed to provide me with copies of the audiotapes of conversations between their representatives and me. However they have stated in their response that they were not regulated by the FSA at this time and therefore had no need to ask or enquire if the policy was right for my needs or I was disqualified from cover by a previous medical condition. It does however seem that first plus where governed by the CGIS code which does require them to make these enquiries.
11. Despite assuring me that they had listened to the tapes of my conversations with their representatives and that if I required them that I would be provided with a copy by return of post, they have now stated it will take a further 40 days to comply with my request. I believe this is a deliberate attempt to delay and frustrate my complaint.
12. As a member of The Consumer Action Group I have shared my experience with others . It appears that the letters I have received from First Plus are ‘standard’ letters. Although they claim to address my points they are in fact uncannily the same as those sent to other people. This would seem to indicate that their complaints procedure is a sham.
13. As shown in the attached ‘final response’ First Plus have now offered a goodwill sum in order to end this complaint. I believe that this is a derisory sum bearing in mind my premium was £5979.00p. I wish this returned plus interest at 8% a grand total of £7462.72p

If your complaint is about a mortgage endowment, you will need to complete our special mortgage-endowment questionnaire, as well as this standard complaint-form. You can download the special questionnaire off our website – from the
frequently-asked-questions page (FAQs) at Financial Ombudsman Service. Or phone us on 0845 080 1800 for help.





time limits may apply to your complaint – so we need to know the following dates

day

month

year

§ When did the advice, transaction or poor service that you’re complaining about take place?

11

11

2004

§ When did you first realise there might be a problem?

01

11

2004

§ When did you first complain to the business you think is responsible?

18

04

1008

just a few more questions
§ Has the business you’re complaining about sent you its final response?
YES * NO

* If you’ve answered YES, please enclose a copy when you send us this form

§ What do you want the business you’re complaining about to do, to put things right for you?

A FULL REFUND OF MY PREMIUM. £5979.00p AND ALL INTREST PAID ON THE ADVANCE OF THAT PREMIUM.
INTEREST OF £ 1488.72p BASED ON 8% THE county court STANDARD RATE.




§ Has there been any court action relating to your complaint
– or is any court action planned?
YES * NO


§ Have you contacted any regulator or other complaints body
about your complaint?
YES * NO


* If you’ve answered YES to either of the two questions above, please give us more details here



please give us any other details that you think will help us understand your complaint

I HAVE WRITTEN A LETTER OF COMPLAINT AND RECEIVED A REPLY FROM FIRSTPLUS REJECTING MY ENTIRE CLAIM. THEY STATE THAT THEY HAVE LISTENED TO THE AUDIO TAPES AND STSTE THE POLICY WAS NOT MIS-SOLD. THEY HAVE ADMITTED THAT NO QUESTIONS WERE ASKED REGARDING WHETHER THE POLICY WAS SUITABLE FOR ME BUT STATE THAT THIA WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT REGULATED BY THE FSA SO DID NOT HAVE TO. THE CGIS CODE THAT THEY BOAST IN THEIR LITRATURE THEY WERE MEMBERS OF STATES THAT THEY DID HAVE TO ENSURE THE POLICY WAS RIGHT FOR ME. I BELIEV THAT AS A SUPPOSED ‘FIT PERSON’ TO HOLD A CREDIT LICENSE THEIR MORALS ARE THAT OF THE BACK STREET SPIV. THIS POLICY WAS PLAINLY MIS-SOLD AND I REQUIRE A FULL REFUND OF MY PREMIUM.


accessibility
Would you like us to adapt the way we communicate with you, or to make any other adjustment (such as writing to you in a language other than English, using TypeTalk etc), in order to meet a specific accessibility or disability need?




YES * NO
* If you’ve answered YES, please give us brief details of how we can help you





finally, please read and sign this declaration

“

I would like the Financial Ombudsman Service to consider my complaint. I confirm that all the information I have given you is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge.

I understand that:

§ you will need to handle personal details about me – which could include sensitive information – in order to deal with my complaint effectively;

§ you may need to exchange information about my complaint with the business I have complained about and any other relevant organisations;

§ you handle complaints differently from the courts – and you usually settle disputes by phoning and writing to the two sides, not by holding hearings in person;

§ you may publish examples of where things can go wrong, based on real cases,
but you will always respect my privacy and keep my personal information confidential.

”

sign here You need to sign, even if someone else is complaining on your behalf.
If you’re signing on behalf of a business, please give your job title.





_________________________ _ ___________ _________________________ _ ___________
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make sure you have …


ü included everything you want to tell us about
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ü enclosed copies of relevant documents

now please post to …
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THIS TIME IT'S WAR...................... ...