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Hi - sorry in advance for the length of this post!
Just wondered if anyone had advice on what to do about Southern's refusal to replace my lost travelcard. It's an annual zone 1-5 season ticket originally worth over £1500 and with a number of months left to run. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCC) state that they are not obliged to replace it at all and definitely won't the second time (I've lost it twice) unless exceptional circumstances e.g. theft. I was at fault for accidentally losing it but this policy seems unfair and uncommercial for a number of reasons which I won't go into now. I’ve mentioned these reasons to Passenger Focus but they just refer me to the NRCC.
Aside from the fairness issues, I'm wondering if I have any legal argument. I understand that I am bound by the NRCC which states that they won't provide a duplicate in my situation and also if the ticket is lost they won't refund the cost of it. Can I argue under a technicality that nowhere in the NRCC does it specifically state that if I lose my ticket I lose the right to travel on the trains? It's this right which I've actually paid for, not the ticket, which is just evidence of my contract with Southern and remains their property. I haven't breached the contract so could I demand a refund of the cost of the right to travel which they are effectively denying me, as opposed to a refund for the cost of the actual physical ticket? I realise this may be knit-picking at the specific wording of the terms to make my case but if the contract isn't clear then maybe that is another argument. The only other thing I can think of is to try and argue that it's an unfair contract?
Any comments or suggestions would be really appreciated. It's a lot of money to lose for a fairly simple mistake and this must have happened to other people.
Can I argue under a technicality that nowhere in the NRCC does it specifically state that if I lose my ticket I lose the right to travel on the trains? It's this right which I've actually paid for, not the ticket, which is just evidence of my contract with Southern and remains their property. I haven't breached the contract so could I demand a refund of the cost of the right to travel which they are effectively denying me, as opposed to a refund for the cost of the actual physical ticket?
I think you have hit the nail on the head here, and my first suggestion would be to write to both Southern and NRCC highlighting these points:
You have a contract to travel
You have paid for this contract to travel
The ticket is evidence of this contract
The ticket is their property
In the absence of the ticket, the contract still exists (you have proof of payment no doubt)
It is up to them to determine what other proof of right to travel you need to provide on the train...ideally a replacement ticket would be the best option, but in the absence of this then you should request some other written proof that this contract exists, and that this will be accepted on the train by any authorised ticket inspector.
TBH I have not heard of this before, and if you request another form of authorisation along these lines they will trip over themselves wondering what to do...and will no doubt replace the ticket.
One final note...and I believe it applies to all "seasonal" permits, including things like car tax - they do not need to refund "part-months" - that is if the ticket/permit is annual, and there is less than one month left to go, then that part of a month is non-refundable.
The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCC) state that they are not obliged to replace it at all and definitely won't the second time (I've lost it twice) unless exceptional circumstances e.g. theft.
Surely that's an unfair term as per UTCCR, especially given the fact (as mentioned in the previous post) you've paid for it!
Great thanks for your reply Spiceskull. Will do as you suggest and request an alternative document to travel rather than a refund. I guess if they refuse to give me this then they are denying me my contractual right to travel and are in breach. Do you think it's worth mentioning this at the bottom as a kind of implied threat that I will be going down this route if they refuse?
Great thanks for your reply Spiceskull. Will do as you suggest and request an alternative document to travel rather than a refund. I guess if they refuse to give me this then they are denying me my contractual right to travel and are in breach. Do you think it's worth mentioning this at the bottom as a kind of implied threat that I will be going down this route if they refuse?
Certainly mention that: irrespective of whether or not you have a ticket, the contract still exists, and by refusing to replace the ticket (subject to a reasonable administration fee) they still do not negate the contract.
Any attempt on their part to refuse you travel would be construed as a willful and premeditated attempt to breach the contract, in light of their awareness that the contract exists, and they are refusing to acknowledge it by producing a replacement ticket. If they wish to go down that route then yes, let them know you will seek reparation in the courts.
There is also the burden of proof if you travel without the ticket: they will state that you cannot prove that you have a contract/right to travel. However, the "accusation" is being made by them, and it is my belief that the onus is on them to prove that you do not have the right to travel, rather than you needing to prove that you do have the right to travel...someone will be along to correct me if I am wrong on this point.
If you have a receipt/credit card transaction number confirming your "purchase" and also a reference number, then carry this with you at all times...it will then be incumbent on them to check that the details are valid...
It does say that I must have a ticket "or other authority" with me to travel. So if I travel without a ticket won't I be breaching that clause irrespective of my right to travel? Or maybe proof of payment could be the "other authority". Think I will carry on buying weekly tickets for the time being as practically I may never get to work on time arguing this one on the way in!
My main concern is that their argument might be that the intention of the contract IS for me to lose my right to travel if I lose my ticket, on the basis that it states I must have a ticket to travel and that they won't replace that ticket if I lose it. Still nowhere does it state that I lose my right though. Will let you know how I get on. Thanks for the help!
Krysus - I don't know much at all about the Unfair Contracts Act so not sure how to argue this one. Maybe if the original suggested route doesn't work I could look into this and try it. Thanks for the reply.
I understand the reason for the 'no replacement' rule is that they treat the card like currency (even with a photo ID), it can be supposedly 'lost' and the re-issue means 2 cards in circulation that are kosher, except for the face on the picture....
I was able to successfully argue that a replacement be issued due to the 'no replacement' condition being printed on the reverse of the actual annual pass, and I never was given an opportunity to review this as the agent had replaced it at the time of renewal.
It appears the official line is that you add the ticket to your home insurance 'valuable items', and claim on that at the time of loss.
Hi Buzby, I just found myself in this very same absurd situation and was very interested to read you were able to successfully argue your case. Would you please further elaborate. You might have a set a precedent we might follow.
Patrick your thread is dated April, is there any update to your counterclaim?
I cannot believe it happened only to us or that the travel company can force me to pay again for my annual ticket and get away with it.
I was never handed a contract when I bought my annual gold card or informed I was carrying a £3,000 cash-card. Thanks for your help!
whenyou purchase a ticket for travel by train it is issued subject to the Conditions of Carriage of Passengers. As the OP states it does clearly sayin condition 34
24. Lost, stolen or mislaid tickets
A ticket is your evidence of your right to make a rail journey and it is your
responsibility to keep it safe. If you lose or mislay a ticket or a Smartcard or it is
stolen, it will not be replaced nor will any of the cost be refunded. However, Train
Companies will replace certain Season Tickets in the circumstances set out in
Condition 34.
Just because you buy a ticket, be it a permit to travel, cheapday single or an annual ticket, all this entitles you to is the right to travel by train between the 2 points stated. I do not beleive that there are any contractual obligations.
Your posts are very interesting and like most here I now find myself in the same situation and need some direction. I lost my season ticket (the first time) last June (08) and received a replacement. My ticket expired in Jan 09 and I purchased another one for 09-10. I have now lost the ticket have been turned down a replacement. The way the figure it is that I started a new contract with Southern in January this year when I purchased the new ticket, so my 12 months started at that point and this current loss is therefore only the first within the 12 month period.
I would really appreciated any advice for anyone who has experienced this and what action/resolution they achieved.
A different view might be:
You go to a cashpoint and withdraw £250, you obtain a receipt for this money and the transaction is recorded on the banks database.
When you arrive home you find to your dismay that the money has gone, somehow it has been lost.
You contact the bank and tell them of the loss, they agree to replace the money for a small admin charge.
Now....two questions,
1) can you imagine that happening?
2) would you feel it unreasonable for them to refuse to do it a second time?
Pete - I know you're not going to like this... but here goes.
Travelcard fraud is rife, and only with the arrival of 'directly adressable' cards have the travel companies got an element of control as if the original ticket is lost, then the system can deactivate it and it has no other value. (Like TFL's 'Oyster').
Losing one Season Ticket is unfortunate, losing two looks like recklessness, and whilst I'm sure you're not doing this to provide a flatmate to have free travel too - you are chasing the wrong argument. You are NOT entitled to a free replacement travelcard for each valididy period.
They make a big song and dance about them being the same as cash, and that it remains your responsibility to insure it against loss or theft As a lead-in, they will usually as a token of goodwill agree to replace the first lost card with a waring that it won't happen again - or you need to take greater care. A second incident will show up as a possible ongoing fraud, and they'll dig their heels in. Claim on your house policy for the loss, as you'll not have to admit the previous disappearance.
As I lost the first card in June 08, if I reapply for a replacement in July 09 will they then accept that it's the first in a 12 month period, I will then only loose a months value of the new card.
Secondly, if they refuse to replace it, could I apply for a refund without the card. i know this will be difficult, however, they set a precedent on this by providing refunds to annual ticket holders without the need to show the ticket during the bad weather when the trains couldn't run. Tenuous I know but if I have the serial number of my card it, was enough then for them to accept I had a valid ticket, and therefore it should be enough on this occasion.
Not living near or using the facility, I nontheless wonder why they can't work on the cc system.
I assume the card is put through a reader and not just shown like a pass, if that is correct, then all they need is different numbers on each card and any cards reported lost get cancelled so no one can use it.
Surely it's as simple as that or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?
1. The fact that the card is used 2-4 times a day, every day, for a year, means that it will be pulled in/out of your wallet/pockets maybe thousands of times therefore it isnt THAT suprising that it may get lost more than once.
2. I would of thought that you could travel as normal and if askesd for a ticket explain that you forgot your season ticket, this will normally be checked by the inspector, the database will show that you have indeed purchased a season ticket, it is possible that you will have to buy a ticket but this money can be claimed back, I dont think you need to sure your ticket to claim this money back, Im unsure though as to how many times you can do this.
3. It really isnt made clear that you will be walking about with an item costing many thousands of pounds in your wallet, Id be suprised if even normal household insurance would cover this.
As I lost the first card in June 08, if I reapply for a replacement in July 09 will they then accept that it's the first in a 12 month period, I will then only loose a months value of the new card.
Secondly, if they refuse to replace it, could I apply for a refund without the card. i know this will be difficult, however, they set a precedent on this by providing refunds to annual ticket holders without the need to show the ticket during the bad weather when the trains couldn't run. Tenuous I know but if I have the serial number of my card it, was enough then for them to accept I had a valid ticket, and therefore it should be enough on this occasion.
If they're worried about fraud surely the first card lost is out of date and would not be valid anyway.
I think I really need to take some legal advice on this score.
You'll be asking to purchase a replacement, and without any evidence of an existing card, I doubt they would be able to offer any credit, you pay the annual rate, and they sell you a card that provides the transportation. If you don;t exhibit the card on request then you are in the same situation as someone who never bought one.
As for seeking a refund - you need to surrender your existing card to be able to do this. As you don;t have it, there will be no opportunity to cancel. (Even if you did, many areas make the refund process a last resort - often you don;t get the true equivalent value of the remaining period surrendered).
Your 'trains not running' example is reasonable based on THEIR inability to perform, however, you're trying to turn this on its head and it won;t work that way. You cannot provide them with evidence that your ticket cannot be used by someone else (because it is lost) and as such, a claim for a refund or replacement (creating the possibility of TWO valid tickets for the same money) a real prospect.
You also missed my point - the fact your original ticket is now out of date is immaterial. They have laready provided a replacement ticket (and possibly implied you should be so careless). For many PTE's that's it, you get no more replacements.
What you need to check, is what are the T&Cs surrounding the issue of replacement lost passes? This will be the decider on what they will do.
Not living near or using the facility, I nontheless wonder why they can't work on the cc system.
I assume the card is put through a reader and not just shown like a pass, if that is correct, then all they need is different numbers on each card and any cards reported lost get cancelled so no one can use it.
Surely it's as simple as that or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?
Fine as far as it goes - TFLs Oyster cards can be cancelled remotely and a replacement issued earing the samle validity or credit purse as before. Assuming the regulations permit a replacement. As for visual non-read tickets, then clearly even if it bore a number it would otherwise look no different and be 'accepted' by a driver or inspector/guart if it was displayed to them, making the possibility of it being made invalid an impossibility.
Refusal to replace lost travelcard
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Originally Posted by Partick
