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  1. #1
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    Question Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Hi peeps

    Sent CCA regquest to Argos, slipped passed the 12 day +2 deadline so I sent them a fax to remind them. short day later I got a letter from 'Home Retail Group Plc' who I'm assuming own Argos.

    The following Letters are the result.

    -----

    Could someone please peruse the letter and explain the implications.

    They also sent out some other documents but they were what appears to be summary sheets with key info like you'd get on terms and conditionsicon.

    Enclosure 1 is supposed to be the one inforce when the account was opened. and enclosure 2 is the current terms and conditionsicon. No where on the documents does it have information like - account number, Debtors details, ie name at the very least. Nor is there a space on the document for this to appear.

    I need some one to explain what this means in terms of them proving they have an executed document.

    If they don't prove this what would a good response be to get this information.

    Thanks in advance

    Sharpman

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Bump .....


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    The agreement should have on it:

    1) the APR
    2) your credit limit or how you will be told what it is
    3) the minimum monthly payments or how they will be determined

    To be properly executed it must also have your name, full postal address and signatureicon (technically it should have their name and address and signature too).

    If enclosure 1 has the 3 things above, then they have complied (albeit late) with your CCA request. You could write and thank them for what they have sent and ask them how they know it is you that owes them this money since they have removed any odentification from the agreement. Point out that what they have sent may well comply with s78(1) of the CCA 1974 but does not proved that you owe them anything. See what they say to that.

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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Hi, i know this thread has been sitting still for a while, but any news on this? I've had the same letter and Enclosure 1&2 sent to me, and wondered what you replied to them.
    Here are my Threads:
    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...os-rd-2-a.html
    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...s-account.html


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Argos have passed me over to our friends at moorcroft.

    I sent the following to Argos as they did not fully comply with my CCA request that I sent a few months back.

    Mr. XX XXXX
    XX XXXXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXXX
    XXXXXXX

    Home retail Group Plc
    Avebury
    489 – 499 Avebury Boulevard
    Milton Keynes
    MK9 2NW

    Account in dispute


    Customer service Manager,

    Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Your Reference: xx/xx Dated xxxxxxxxxx reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

    I note that you have replied to the above by sending copies of your companies terms and conditionsicon. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.
    To clarify, just sending the terms and conditionsicon is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.
    This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;
    As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.
    Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:
    Section 2 (2)(a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;
    And more importantly
    Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.
    You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.
    Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.
    The regulations state:
    (2) There may be omitted from any such copy-
    (a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;
    (b) any signatureicon box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);
    It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document; this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should be presented in form and content as required by the regulations.
    The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.
    Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditionsicon.
    It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.
    I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

    Yours faithfully

    Signed
    Mr Sharpman
    That was sent on 26/08/08, Signed for on 29/08/08 So just waiting now for their reply.


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    Question Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Ok,

    Got this back from Argos in reply to previous post.

    Dear Mr Sharpman

    Thank you for your recent undated letter.
    My previous correspondence did provide you with the information required for us to fulfil our obligations under s78 Consumer Credit Act 1974. As I explained at that time, The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 explains what must be included in the copy agreement. Regulation 3 provides that the copy may omit certain information, including the signatureicon box and your name and address. I trust that the above clarifies matters but if you do require further information, or a further copy of my previous correspondence then please let me know.

    Customer Service Manager


    From my interpretation of schedule 3 (but thats just me) is when a document is sent to a customer to sign they should send 2 copies. the second copy need not have the name, address and signatory box as that is the customers copy. and only needs to send a signed copy back to the creditor.
    Well that's my slant on it.

    Does anybody know a way to get them to actualy send a copy of the said CCA document?

    To me there is no way of knowing whether the stuff she sent me in any way relates to the account in question. Unless there is a name and address on there with a signature then how can they say this is the aggremment that I signed and agreed to?

    Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

    Thanks

    Sharpman.


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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Ok, Decided to go with A S.A.R - (Subject access requesticon) to force their hand to see if this will produce the document I requested. Also to see what charges have been levied on the account.

    Sharpman.


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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    SARicon Delivered 40 days and counting.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    I would be inclined to write back to them something along the lines of:

    The CCA does allow for the omission of this information. However, you are not prohibited from sending this information. As you are pursuing for an alleged debt, you are obligated to prove such a debt upon request, otherwise it is unenforceable. In this specifc case, such a debt can only be proven by showing that it was myself who signed for this credit with yourself, and as such requires a copy of the form WITHOUT the signatureicon, name and address omitted.

    Until such proof is received, I am unable to discuss the matter any further.
    Bear in mind this isnt my forte!

    7 years in retail customer service

    Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years


    By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

    Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

    Please click the star if I have helped!!

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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Hi Sharpman

    I'm locked into a battle with Argos currently as well, it's been a year since they've had any money from me.

    Unlike you I was given a copy of the 'application form' as you though all my details were displayed. Lucky for me for a small period of time I worked on the same floor as trading standards and their advice was priceless, the form is an application form and is unforceable! I have the same letter as you upstairs that is attached to your first thread. They refused to respond to any of my points and offered me £60 off the debt as good will, I told them where to go. They passed on to Experto who after one letter sent it onto Incaso and after they got one letter they sent it back to Experto, prior to this I transfered my compliant about the non-compliant CCA to fosicon who said it wasn't their remit and passed it to FLA who were completely useless and I've been sharing letters and I've finally got fed up and written to my local Trading Standards but as yet no response, if they don't help me out I'll put the complaint through Consumer Direct and let OFT know what's going on as well.

    I support MrShed's letter, also remind them that they will need to produce the original document in court should the matter escalate.

    I love CAG!

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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Was thinking of sending something along these lines.


    I received your letter and have noted its contents.

    The letter does not clarify matters as assumed.
    I cannot understand, if a document exists, why you are hindering matters by withholding important information which would clear up the situation in a heartbeat
    .
    Unless, for some reason the document has been mislaid or destroyed, then I would appreciate a photocopy of the document to ascertain the contents.

    As previously mentioned in an earlier letter, the document that was sent in response to my legitimate CCA 1974 request merely leads to further questions. There is no way of confirming the constructed document is in fact the document that was allegedly signed when this account was started.

    So, I take you up on your offer and am requesting further information in the form of a ‘True Copy’ in its entirety, containing ALL information, without any omissions.

    Until such time as I receive the document I requested I will still hold this account in dispute.

    I hope this clarifies matters.
    Sharpman.


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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    bump


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Update
    sent S.A.R - (Subject access requesticon) dated 10th sept
    signed for 11th sept

    no response as of 30th sept.

    Apart from nice letter from moorcroft.

    feel a cca request coming on.

    will be doing that tomorrow.

    Sharpman


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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Hi Sharpman

    sorry your thread updates have not sent me any notifications.

    I would send them another polite letter reminding them they have not issued the SARicon information giving them a further 7-14 days depending on how you feel, then issue them a LBA (letter before actionicon) giving them 7 days and if they still don't respond issue an N1 to the courts. I did it to Woolwich when they ignored my SARicon, they responded to the form that they would defend in full, 1 week later I had a message on my phone from their legal department telling me she would get the information to me the next day and she emailed it to me as well for good measure. I also got my court fee back and an extra £10 for costs (didn't want to be greedy just wanted the info).

    What address are you sending everything to?

    I love CAG!

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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    What address are you sending everything to?
    sent it to data controler
    at
    home retail group card services ltd
    489-499 avebury boulevard
    saxon gate west
    central milton keynes
    bucks
    mk9 2nw

    They have until about 22nd oct to supply.

    Sharpman


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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    I send mine to Argos address below, sometimes I'd get a response back from them and other times from the home retail group.

    Argos
    Royal Avenue
    Widnes
    WA88 1AP

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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Update

    CCA'd Moorcroft 13/10/08

    maybe they'll shed some light as to wether argos have a valid cca.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Don't hold your breath

    Steven

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    Can breath now
    Recieved a nice letter from Mrs K Dyde along with my £1.00 postal order.

    The gist of the letter is......

    Thank you for your request blah blah blah.........
    At this stage we are currently unable to provide a copy of the agreement as we have been in contact with our client (ARGOS) who have confirmed that to obtain a copy blah blah blah ....
    I must put a request in writing to blah blah blah.......... ( OC address )
    So, I guess they're shirking their obligations then.

    Could anybody suggest a strongly worded response for mrs K Dyde.


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    Default Re: Mr Sharpman v Argos

    bump



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