Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
Last week I bought a digital projector (c/w spare bulb and ceiling mount) advertised as new from an ebay seller. He claims in the selling blurb that he removes the projector from its packaging and tests it before despatch.
When the projector arrived I removed it from its packaging and tested it. It worked, but not correctly - basically it displays a large bright vertical band through the centre of the picture.
When I examined the it further I discovered that the paint was missing from around the ceiling mount screw holes in the base of the projector. I examined the ceiling mount and discovered it was badly scratched with paint missing from around the projector mount holes.
I confronted the seller with the fault and he stated that it was a common "feature" of the projector and to read the manual and adjust the picture tone controls. As an aside, I contacted other buyers of this unit (from other sellers) and of those that replied, none said that this "feature" existed in their projectors. I confronted the seller about the scratch marks to the underneath of the projector and the ceiling mount. He then added that he attached the ceiling mount to the projector to ensure the screws "bit" correctly. He now adds that he has written proof that the projector was working prior to despatch (!).
Can he actually remove goods from sealed manufacturer's box and test them prior to despatch and still pass them off as new? I do not believe he has, I believe the unit is second hand and he knew it was faulty.
Anyway, I e-mailed him stating I was not interested in a refund, I simply wanted a new projector and ceiling mount, both supplied unopened in the manufacturer's original sealed in box packaging.
He then stated that he was going to make a claim against the Royal Mail on my behalf and that if the RM were to call me I should tell them that I had filled in the forms.
This last statement worried me so I have begun a Paypal dispute claiming the goods were faulty and not as described (old advertised as new).
The seller has now warned me that involving Paypal any further will jeopardise his attempts to get my money back from RM. He has stated the he does not see why he should be out of pocket (£300) for this apparently brand new projector which does not work.
Surely, given that it has not worked from day 1 the seller is obliged to provide me with a suitable replacement? This man is very evasive in his replies to me, with varying excuses. However, it seems to me he should simply provide a replacement and then return the faulty unit to the manufacturer for a refund (presuming of course it is new - which it probably isn't).
I believe this is a clear case of fraud (selling old as new) and I am somewhat concerned at him telling me to tell RM that I was the one making the claim should they contact me.
Should I allow him to continue to claim against RM? In fact is it even relevent?
Re: Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
You have done the right thing in opening a dispute with paypal, they will advise you to return the goods to the seller, make sure that it is securely packed and sent special delivery, it will cost a bit more but it has the added benefit of being properly insured against damage or loss and is trackable/traceable.
If the seller tries to commit fraud by incorrectly claiming against RM and saying that it is you, that is his look out, do not lie about it.
You should get your money back as the goods were not as described, post them back after taking pictures as proof of condition and await your money, he may try to say that the goods were damaged by RM on the way back or that you didn't return them, hence, a fully trackable method of return. hope this helps
Lula
Lula v Abbey - Settled Lula v Abbey (2) - Settled Lula v Abbey (3) - Stayed
Re: Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
Many items of consumer electronics you see on eBay aren’t new, they are factory seconds, and these are items returned to the manufacturer who sells them as job-lots to traders.
Items such as computer parts and small electronic devices are industrial surpluses bought by ebay owned companies based in the far east who recruit work-at-home agents to sell them on eBay to UK buyers as private sales - thus exclusing both the drop-shipper, paypal and eBay of liability for faulty goods and non-delivery. It's always either the consumer or the work-at-home agent that loses out.
The OFT know that eBay traders pretend to be private sellers to exclude themselves from liabiity under the Consumer Protection (distance Selling) Regulations 2000 and the Sale of Goods Act. Determining whether an eBay account is used privately or by a trader has been ordered by the OFT and eBay now has an obligation to comply and sellers will be taxed on their earnings.
You paid with a credit card, you can do a chargeback under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 because the goods are not sold as described and not fit the purpose. Just write to paypal asking for a refund – simple letter - and if no joy then execute chargeback. Phone your bank for a chargeback form in the meantime.
The seller is responsible for delivery and it looks like he wants to screw Royal Mail, so quote this on your chargeback form.
You mention fraud in your post. To be technical its fraud if you literally translate Section 2(1)(a)(1) of the Fraud Act 2006 because he made a false representation to obtain a money transfer from you, but the police will probably fob you off with excuses. Your case otherwise meets the criteria for a crinminal fraud investigation e.g. have supporting evidence, its criminal law, seller mitigates, wants to defraud royal mail etc etc.
If you claim against RM then you could be party to committing fraud because you already know the fault didn't arise because it was delivered by them.
Re: Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
I intend to reply to him like so:
Having taken legal advice yesterday afternoon I can say the following to you.
You are legally obliged under the Sale of Goods Act to provide me with a brand new, fully functioning projector and accessories as described in your Ebay listing.
You have failed to do this. Firstly, I do not accept that the goods were brand new as witnessed by the missing paint from around the mounting holes on the base of he projector and the missing paint and general poor condition of the ceiling mount.
Secondly, you have provided with me goods which I consider to be not fit for the purpose for which they were provided in that the projector does not function correctly as explained in previous e-mails.
You seem more concerned with being out of pocket than you do with the facts presented in the previous paragraph. I am currently the one out of pocket, not you. If, as you claim, the goods are new, you should provide me with, as I have requested on a number of occasions, new and functional goods in sealed packaging. You should then return the faulty goods to your supplier, or the manufacturer and request a refund or replacement for yourself.
My intention now is to escalate this dispute through paypal and recouporate my money.
Is that fair, or should I just go ahead and escalate without giving him the chance to comment? He has stated that he has already begun a RM claim and that I should meet him half way so that we both get our money back.
Re: Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
I’d get a chargeback form, start paypal dispute resolution concurrently until one or other trumps up the refund.
Your letter's a bit wordy, so I’d suggest something like this – assuming he isn't a private seller.
Dear Sir/madam
Re: Projector. £[amount]
I have sought legal advice and I asked you to refund me in the next seven days, the purchase price of the goods plus my reasonable expenses for collecting and delivering the goods I have incurred to this point.
The goods are not as described and not fit the purpose for which they are intended.
I have already attempted to bring this matter to an amicable resolve with you on several occasions without success and for the avoidance of doubt that if you fail to refund me the sum of £000 within seven days being [date], I will automatically file a claim for £000 in the small clams track on the grounds of misrepresenting the description of the goods to obtain a sale.
Please be advised I will ask for costs allowed by the court.
Yours Faithfully
There's a snag, some parts of consumer protection law excludes internet auctions and this sale is caveat emptor. However, there is exclusion to caveat emptor if the seller deliberately concealed defects with the goods to obtain a sale.
Re: Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
I escalated my dispute with paypal. I told them all the facts. Within 20 minutes I received a notice from Paypal stating that seller had agreed to give me a full refund.
Presumably the refund is performed by Paypal.
Incredibly an hour later I received an email from the seller stating that he would send me a replacement projector on condition that once I have the refund I pay it straight into his Paypal account. And also he asked that I send the unit back by Royal Mail and ensure I told the RM man that it was damaged by them in the original delivery, and to ensure that I told anyone from RM who might contact me the same story.
Naturally I will do neither.
Can anyone confirm that it is Paypal who do the refund, rather than the seller? This man is completely untrustworthy and if it is down to him to do it, I suspect I will never see it.
Re: Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
Hi, it is paypal that should do it, when the money hits your paypal account, move it to your bank account, if you actually want to still do business with this person (personally I wouldn't go near him again with a bargepole) wait until you get a unit that you are happy with until you pay him.
Under no circumstances lie to RM, that is fraud.
Make sure that you send the unit back via special delivery,
Lula
Lula v Abbey - Settled Lula v Abbey (2) - Settled Lula v Abbey (3) - Stayed
Re: Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
Originally Posted by deadmonty
I escalated my dispute with paypal. I told them all the facts. Within 20 minutes I received a notice from Paypal stating that seller had agreed to give me a full refund.
Presumably the refund is performed by Paypal.
Incredibly an hour later I received an email from the seller stating that he would send me a replacement projector on condition that once I have the refund I pay it straight into his Paypal account. And also he asked that I send the unit back by Royal Mail and ensure I told the RM man that it was damaged by them in the original delivery, and to ensure that I told anyone from RM who might contact me the same story.
Naturally I will do neither.
Can anyone confirm that it is Paypal who do the refund, rather than the seller? This man is completely untrustworthy and if it is down to him to do it, I suspect I will never see it.
Cheers to all who provided assistance.
Paul
It depends, the seller can issue refund and close the dispute or let paypal run.
Paypal will either ask you to return it (trackable) or prove item is not as described(letter or fax from supplier etc).
Idax
Cag is a free self-help site. If you are contacted by any other user recommending or offering no win no fee or paid for service, please report this to the site or to a site team member.
CAG depends on donations. Please consider making a donation - however big or small.
Ebay Seller Passing Off Faulty Second Hand Goods as New
with a credit card.
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by deadmonty
