Thread: Sharpman V Egg

They are unbelievable are they not? So they have obviously had your letter as you say it was signed for. Do I take it they have not responded at all? I would suspect that someone has not read it and just credited the cheque to your account.

My first reaction would be to stop paying and tell them to get lost. They do have another 30 days after the 12+2 to supply your agreement, and indeed if they suddenly manage to find it after 6 months the debt would become enforceable again.

If it was me I would be tempted to make the next payment (hopefully the last) and send them a letter reminding them of their obligations after receiving your request. If you can't find one I am sure I have one in my library

Hi, Sharpman.

I've 'lifted' this post from one of the Mods.Gizmo111.


A debt becomes unenforceable under the CCA if a creditor does not supply a true copy of the signed credit agreement within 12 working days of it being requested, after a further month the creditor has committed an offence. This offence can be reported to the Trading Standards Authority (in the creditors area, not your local one), or the FSA.

The debt remains unenforceable for as long as the creditor fails to produce the signed credit agreement – this means if they produce the agreement some months down the line, they are quite within their rights to enforce it. They do not need to take any further action to enforce the debt. A debtor cannot take any action against the creditor for failing to produce the signed credit agreement within the prescribed time, because that is up to the agencies that the offence has been reported to. Any sanctions that may be imposed are at the discretion of these agencies, and it is not a matter that the debtor can take to the civil court.

If a CCJ has already been entered against a debt, then there is no point in requesting the agreement under the CCA, if your intention is to argue that the debt is unenforceable, since the debt has already been enforced. You can however request a true copy of the original signed credit agreement if you wish to check original terms and conditions etc. If they do not supply it then your only recourse is to report them to the aforementioned agencies. It would be very difficult to prove that they didn’t have the agreement at the time judgment was entered.

It is imperative that you continue to pay any debt under the terms of a CCJ.

Issuing a court claim for non-compliance of a CCA request in all probability achieves nothing to benefit to the debtor, as a court claim is likely to spur a detailed search which could well end up with them producing a perfectly acceptable original signed agreement in court – which would result in the debtor losing the case, and being made liable for the creditor’s costs.

If after requesting a true copy of a signed credit agreement the creditor fails to produce it, it does not mean that the debt does not exist, because at the end of the day the debtor spent the money and therefore they owe it and need to pay it back The debtor may now however be in a good position to make a Full and final offer to clear the debt.
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Hope it helps.

Regards.

Scott.

An issue that is subject to great debate Sharpman. Whilst non-production of a CCA makes the debt unenforceable in a court it does not wipe the debt out. In theory they can still put a default on your record. There have been a few people on here who have sought to have defaults removed on the basis that no CCA exists but it is not a guaranteed success. Something I have not yet delved into - being quite happy for the debts to go away

Section 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 says

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)--
(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and
(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

So, yes, the account is unenforceable until they come up with an agreement and you can consider it in dispute. In any letters, you should write 'ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE' in big bold letters at the top. As they may not enforce it that includes issuing a default. They would be breaking the law if they did.

Just write and remind them that they have not complied with your request under s78 of the CCA 1974 within the statutory period and that means they may not enforce the debt - ie they may not ask for paymennt and you do not have to make any payments, they may not add intrest or charges and they may not pass information concerning the account to any third party includeing but not limited to CRAs. If this state of affiars continues for a month they commit an offence under s78(6) of the Act.

Here's A copy of the Default Notice as Mentioned in Previous post.

Could someone cast a beady eye over it to see what you think.

Bearing in mind this was sent out 5 days after the CCA request failed the 12+2 point.

......

Also, in the last paragraph on page 2 it states they may terminate the agreement.

Now here's the thing. They have already terminated the agreement. I was one of those 'Lucky' ones.
Thanks in advance

Sharpman

SharpmanTF1, reading between the lines you would like the DN withdrawn, and demands for payment stopped, on the grounds that Egg has failed to produce your CCA to date.

Reading Steven's comments the non-production of CCA will prevent Egg from demanding payments in court or out of court. The lawyers will have to clarify if Egg would be prevented by laws and regulations from blackening your credit rating at Experian. Passing the DN to Experian does not constitute an act of debt collection, it is merely an act of sharing financial intelligence among the trade union of money-lenders.

Until the CCA is produced the court will not enforce collection of the alleged debt, but equally the court will not rule that no debt exists simply because no CCA has been produced. To stop the DN before the deadline I believe you will need to prove the alleged arears as shown by recent statements are wrong. If preventing the DN is important to you, you might consider some horsetrading with Egg -- if Egg will do something for you, then you will do something for them. Faced with the prospect of losing all chance of collecting your card balance (if indeed they have irretrievably lost your CCA), Egg might consider a horsetrading proposal.

Originally Posted by Mistermind

Passing the DN to Experian does not constitute an act of debt collection, it is merely an act of sharing financial intelligence among the trade union of money-lenders.

It is, however, an act of enforcement which they cannot do whilst the account is in dispute. If they do, it is an offence under s78(6) of the the CCA 1974. In addition, if they cannot produce an executed agreement, they don't have your permission to share your data and so it is an offence under the DPA 1998 as well.

Originally Posted by steven4064

In addition, if they cannot produce an executed agreement, they don't have your permission to share your data and so it is an offence under the Data Protection Act 1998 as well.

If this is strictly enforceable in the courts, I wonder how many personal files out of the tens of millions maintained by Experian and Equifax cannot be backed up by a physically existing CCA. Experian et al ought to make inspection of the CCA a condition for accepting consumer data.

A Nationwide campaign to request CCAs could bring the credit cards to their knees.

Originally Posted by Mistermind

A Nationwide campaign to request CCAs could bring the credit cards to their knees.

It's a thought

Ok, going over my stuff again.......

update as of 16 dec 2009.

Wrote to Egg beginning Jan 2008 for a copy of the CCA (can't remember when I opened the account - which, I assume is one of the legitimate reasons for doing a CCA request)

Got no response from them but they did recieve the letter as indicated in an earlier post as they had cashed the po and charged me 2 squid for the effort. (as indicated in a copy of statement posted on earlier post.)

I sent them a letter on 28th Feb 2008 pointing out that I had not received a response from them and also pointed out the error of their ways in the use of the 'Fee' and the charge for using that 'fee'

I think they aren't really interested as I'm paying them some money, all be it a reduced amount. So I could probably see it from there point of view as long as they are getting some cash they aren't bothered.

Well, I think I need to start things rolling again.

Does anybody have any suggestions as to wording etc, and who to write to to get a response from them.

Does any body have the correct address to send a SAR to for EGG ?

update .....

Just had a look back at my bank statements - I have a payment to eg in the beginning of 2002. so the 'alleged' card was opened before 2002 - i have a feeling well before 2002.

So, my question is,

When did online agreements for Egg come into force?
would this agreement have been a postal, physical agreement to be signed and returned?

Hi,

As The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Communications) Order 2004 came into force in December 2004 any online agreements entered into prior to this date still need a signed executed credit agreement.

Electronic signatures weren't considered valid until this date.



Regards.

Scott.

Thanks scott,
I guess I can safely assume that the 'agreement' along with all those other Egg ones is flawed. all I need to do is get them to send me a 'true copy'
from all the other threads from egg i understand this is not easy as i'm finding out. nearly a year for a CCA request, me thinks they are extracting the urine.