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Last Friday, I was required to return a form to my local jobcentre to sort out my new claim to JSA that has taken almost 2 months to sort out (another story).
Anyways, I have been completely skint (obviously) and needed to get this form in as a state of emergency.
I drove to the Jobcentre and stopped outside, which is a side street in my town and admittedly has double yellows outside it. The nearest car park (although I wouldnt have been able to afford it) is about 500 yards away.
I realise I was taking the risk stopping there, but left my hazard warning lights on and legged it in to drop off the form. There was a couple of people in the queue, but I was away from my vehicle no longer than 5 minutes.
When I returned to the car, I had a Traffic Warden standing in front of my car. I explained the car would be moved now and had only been 5 minutes. But the 'miserable old cow' continued to put the ticket on the car explaining 'Double Yellow Lines are 24/7'.
I had left my house at 9:15, got a ticket 9:24 and was home by 9:32. I was always under the impression that traffic wardens are required to wait 10 minutes for the owner to return to their vehilce to allow them to move it. The ticket was physically put on my windscreen when the keys were in the ignition and about to move.
I then rang the council to mainly complain about the Traffic Wardens conduct as she could have been a little more understanding and got told if I wanted to dispute the ticket to email in. Which I did...
I have, this morning, been issued a parking charge notice for a violation for stopping outside the local jobcentre, I was there all of about 5 minutes returning a form required by the jobcentre and returned to my vehicle to find the parking attendant issuing this notice.
I explained I’d only been there 5 minutes returning the form and was moving the vehicle immediately. The attendant didn’t show any compassion and carried on regardless explaining that “double yellow lines are 24/7.
I can understand the reasoning for this, but as I didn’t have any money for the car park and was only there 5 minutes, I didn’t think there would be a problem.
I was at the Jobcentre trying to sort out an ongoing claim as I haven’t had any money since the end of November.
I cannot believe that the jobcentre’s road doesn’t have at least a half hours allowance layby to help the thousands of unemployed people visit the Jobcentre without being penalised for the convenience of doing so.
I completely disagree with the Penalty Notice as it seems as though you are targeting people who cannot afford to pay the charge, especially when stopped directly outside the Jobcentre for a maximum of 5 minutes.
I would like you to consider the possibility of cancelling this charge due to the points I have made in this correspondence.
I look forward to your reply,
Yours faithfully
I'm not after sympothy or any other compassion because I'm unemployed. But seeing as I was at the jobcentre, it felt like I was being victimised.
Something else that wound me up was, this Traffic Warden, had stopped her car (Council Vehicle) in front of mine (also on Double Yellow's) to give ME a ticket! Isnt that setting a bad example...?
Does anyone think this will hold water as I havent had a reply as yet.
Should I just foot the bill (by borrowing it) as I'm now 7 days into the 14 day period.
At the end of the day the yellow lines are there for a reason. You know you shouldn't of parked there.
You never know someone at the traffic office may take pity on you and cancel the ticket but I wouldn't hold my breath.
As for the Traffic Warden parking in front of you. She was still around to move her car if say an ambulance or fire engine needed to get passed you were not.
I would. If you don't the fine will get bigger and who knows where that will lead. Pay the fine as soon as you can and contest the fine by writing to the address on the ticket. I don't know if they will give you more time to pay as you have no money but it's worth asking.
DejaVu, it pains me to say this but I think that you have zero chance of getting off on the grounds you have stated.
The better news is that all may not be lost. Can you scan and post both sides of your parking ticket and post it here. It is quite possible that there are errors in it and these will help.
On a practical level there are some things that you can do. You need to plan for the possiblity that you may need to pay this ticket. You don't say how much it is but let's assume it is £100 discounted to £50 if paid in 14 days.
Assuming you cannot raise £50 in 14 days, you may get some more time when the council respond to your letter - it may be a further 14 days so can you raise £50 in say 20 days? If you will need to plan on raising £100 but it need not be within 28 days you could probably safely plan to spread over 6-9 months. This is because not before 28 days is up and probably more like 3 months the council will send you a Notice To Owner. This gives you the formal right to appeal. You must do so within 28 days and there is no cost to you. Wait until (say) the 24th day before sending it back (I would send it special delivery). The council will consider your appeal and either accept or reject it. If they reject it you have the right to appeal to PATAS if you are in London and NPAS if outside. Again wait until towards the end of the time allowed (to give you time to save) before you send it back. Ask for a personal hearing. The Adjudicators will probably give you a date about 3 months away.
If you follow the above it will give you the maximum time to save. If the adjudicator rules against you you must pay (again you will be given a bit of time to do so). But it will be no more than the £100 (if the number above is right). If you do not pay the charge will go up and if your circumstances haven't improved I suspect you may end up losing your car. It can and does happen.
So one question for you now is is it easier to raise £50 in (say) 20 days max (£2.50 a day) or £100 over 9 months (40p a day - ish).
Of course there is always the possibility that you will win in which case you have a bit of cash for whatever you want.
Now the really good news is that if you post a scan of your ticket - remove the personal details and reference - and follow the credible advice you get you will be doing all that you can to help yourself.
One last thing, I apologise if I have come across as patronising. I didn't mean to. I sense from your post that you are in unfamiliar and worrying territory.
I would. If you don't the fine will get bigger and who knows where that will lead. Pay the fine as soon as you can and contest the fine by writing to the address on the ticket. I don't know if they will give you more time to pay as you have no money but it's worth asking.
NO, NO, NO!
Only do this if you want to kiss goodbye to your cash.
If you pay you have no realistic right of appeal.
Read my long post and if there is anything you don't understand come back to me.
Bernie, Sorry if what I said was wrong (I'm no expert) I thought that if he doesn't pay the smaller fine and it goes to a bigger one he will be struggling even more to pay as he is unemployed. Unless the ticket has mistakes on it as you say he is very unlikely to get away with it.
Bernie, Sorry if what I said was wrong (I'm no expert) I thought that if he doesn't pay the smaller fine and it goes to a bigger one he will be struggling even more to pay as he is unemployed. Unless the ticket has mistakes on it as you say he is very unlikely to get away with it.
Not wrong, but could be a bad knee-jerk decison.
Fundamentally:
Pay now, lower amount but more difficult to raise cash and no possibility of appeal.
Pay later, higher amount but easier to raise, statutory right of appeal (2 stages) and real possibility of "getting off".
If you are that skint maybe you should try walking? Double Yellow lines mean no parking or waiting at anytime, it is the Highway code. I hardly consider giving parking tickets out to someone parked on DYL as being a jobsworth, that is after all what they are employed to do.
If you are that skint maybe you should try walking? Double Yellow lines mean no parking or waiting at anytime, it is the Highway code. I hardly consider giving parking tickets out to someone parked on DYL as being a jobsworth, that is after all what they are employed to do.
Double Yellows only mean such when they are marked in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 as amended and also where a valid TRO is in force
we are often to quick to assume that all is Rosie and that the ticket was issued correctly.
i have recently given the DfT enforcement office a lecture on the TSRGD due to failings on my local authority's part to apply the regs correctly and the fact that any de minimus is taken care of within the regs, therefore not complying with the regs mean the marking is unlawful and cannot attract a penalty charge
now has anyone here asked the op if the lines were correct? also is the pcn correct, there is a body of case law which can render a ticket invalid
Fundamentally:
Pay now, lower amount but more difficult to raise cash and no possibility of appeal.
Pay later, higher amount but easier to raise, statutory right of appeal (2 stages) and real possibility of "getting off".
except for a possible restitution claim if you pay in error due to the fact that the ticket was issued in an unlawful bay among other things
WOOLWICH EQUITABLE BUILDING SOCIETY RESPONDENTS AND INLAND
REVENUE COMMISSIONERS APPELLANTS - [1993] A.C. 70 is a very useful case in these circumstances
except for a possible restitution claim if you pay in error due to the fact that the ticket was issued in an unlawful bay among other things
WOOLWICH EQUITABLE BUILDING SOCIETY RESPONDENTS AND INLAND
REVENUE COMMISSIONERS APPELLANTS - [1993] A.C. 70 is a very useful case in these circumstances
See my post where I said no realistic right of appeal.
I think a restitution claim would be struck out if the evidence it was based on was reasonably ascertainable at the time the payment was made.
See my post where I said no realistic right of appeal.
I think a restitution claim would be struck out if the evidence it was based on was reasonably ascertainable at the time the payment was made.
i tend to disagree, the fact is that the authority is or would be if the lines and signs were in correct committing an offence of misfeasance/malfeasance in a public office as they would have made an undertaking to the secretary of state at the time they entered DPE that all lines and signs were compliant
it is fairly easy to prove other wise and therefore you could easily argue as i have and am currently doing for someone else that the penalty was paid because at the time of issue the person wasn't in possession of the relevant facts and were lead to believe that it was correct and lawful
relying upon the ruling in the case i posted above
i am aware of a couple of restitution claims going on in southampton at the moment on exactly the same circumstances
i tend to disagree, the fact is that the authority is or would be if the lines and signs were in correct committing an offence of misfeasance/malfeasance in a public office as they would have made an undertaking to the secretary of state at the time they entered DPE that all lines and signs were compliant
That may be so but what if the lines subsequently became non-compliant.
Originally Posted by pt2537
it is fairly easy to prove other wise and therefore you could easily argue as i have and am currently doing for someone else that the penalty was paid because at the time of issue the person wasn't in possession of the relevant facts and were lead to believe that it was correct and lawful
If it's so easy then it should be possible to establish the evidence at the time.
Originally Posted by pt2537
relying upon the ruling in the case i posted above
i am aware of a couple of restitution claims going on in southampton at the moment on exactly the same circumstances
Is that case a DPE one? I think that the notion of restitution in the context of DPE is a fairly new one and I think that applying for restitution after payment of a challenged pcn has been made is a rather different thing to restitution of an unchallenged one.
My whole point is that the legal challenges open to the OP are far greater if the statutory route is followed and further, that it may make payment easier (albeit a higher amount) in cash-flow terms. Restitution in DPE is to my knowledge pretty uncharted territory.
That may be so but what if the lines subsequently became non-compliant.
an FOI request to the Highway Authority would produce proof of any modifications to the lines and signs
If it's so easy then it should be possible to establish the evidence at the time.
Is that case a DPE one? YES I think that the notion of restitution in the context of DPE is a fairly new one and I think that applying for restitution after payment of a challenged pcn has been made is a rather different thing to restitution of an unchallenged one.yes, in these cases it has been that the case that the PCN has been paid without challenge as the persons were not aware that the bay was a hybrid of a 1028 and 1032 and therefore have no basis no law.if you challenge a PCN it is most likely although not always the case i admit, that you would have presented a reasoned defence to the PCN and lost based upon the facts of your case.
that said, i see no reason why you would not be entitled to a claim of restitution should it become apparent and have not already been brought before the adjudicator that the bay was indeed unlawful or didnt have the valid TRO in force
My whole point is that the legal challenges open to the OP are far greater if the statutory route is followed and further, that it may make payment easier (albeit a higher amount) in cash-flow terms. Restitution in DPE is to my knowledge pretty uncharted territory.
Be delighted to be corrected though.
i would always challenge the ticket through the proper channels and am not suggesting that you should just pay then reclaim.
that is not the case at all, but i am saying that using the authority of Woolwich equitable building society you could recover the funds that you have paid
Double Yellows only mean such when they are marked in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 as amended and also where a valid TRO is in force
we are often to quick to assume that all is Rosie and that the ticket was issued correctly.
The op didn't mention he had been down the library to check the TRO or checked the condition of the markings before he parked so my point still stands, if you can't afford to pay for parking tickets don't park in stupid places!!
The op didn't mention he had been down the library to check the TRO or checked the condition of the markings before he parked so my point still stands, if you can't afford to pay for parking tickets don't park in stupid places!!
Ah what excellent advice
right now back to the real world, i accept that no one would openly go out of their way to check the lines and signs before parking
but i would draw you attention to Davies v Heatley Queen's Bench Division
4 February 1971 [1971] R.T.R. 145, im sure you are aware of the case, it established that if the prescribed signs and lines aren't used then no penalty can be attached to the markings
therefore, while it is rather silly to have parked on DYL's if they are not complaint then there is a defence in law
sarcastic advice doesnt help at all, it is surely best to give people every chance at defending themselves to penalty charge notices rather than judging them for their errors, i leave that for the Adjudicators personally
sarcastic advice doesnt help at all, it is surely best to give people every chance at defending themselves to penalty charge notices rather than judging them for their errors, i leave that for the Adjudicators personally
Maybe if people took reponsibility for their own actions rather than blame 'jobsworth' traffic wardens instead of their own stupidity as a reason for getting a parking ticket I may be more sympathetic.
Maybe if people took reponsibility for their own actions rather than blame 'jobsworth' traffic wardens instead of their own stupidity as a reason for getting a parking ticket I may be more sympathetic.
There is a saying that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit......
What does it matter if he takes responsibility for his actions. Yes it probably wasn't the wisest thing to park on DYL. However its really irrelevant. The OP has asked for help which is what I thought these forums were all about.
If there is anything about the ticket or DYL that are non-compliant with the laws and regulation of this land then, as you are fond of putting in your posts, the contravention did not occur.
If councils and jobsworth traffic wardens checked that their tickets and markings complied with the laws of the land then there would be a lot less reason for this forum to exist.
Jobsworth Traffic Warden?
notice for a violation for stopping outside the local jobcentre, I was there all of about 5 minutes returning a form required by the jobcentre and returned to my vehicle to find the parking attendant issuing this notice.
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Originally Posted by wino
