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My niece and her partner have a disabled baby. Her partner is a contractor with a rubbish collection firm. I know they have been funny with him in the past about taking time off. He had a week off last week as my niece had to have her appendix removed so he had to look after their son. Now my niece is back in hospital with an infection and his work have told him if he has any more time off, they will dismiss him! Can they legally do this?
Please help
firstly it depends on the way in which he is employed and the amount of time off he has had.
If he is " casual " then as far as i know there isnt a lot he can do. If it is a properly employed job then he obviously has rights.
take a look at ( or ask him to) http://acas.gov.uk
which is the recognised site for helping with employment issues.
My place of work has a couple of lads who have taken countless days off and they have been interviewed and informed that their attendance is now being monitored and will lead to disciplinary procedures if it doesnt improve.
good luck
baz
Please note that although my advice is offered, you should consult your legal representative before taking ANY action.
Any posts submitted here on the Consumer Action Group under the user name GlasweJen may not necessarily be the view of the poster, CAG or indeed any normal person.
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The Employment Rights Act 1999 (ERA) gives a right to every employee, regardless of length of service, to take a reasonable amount of unpaid time of work "to take action which is necessary" to help when a dependant gives birth, falls ill or is injured or assaulted. A "dependant" in this context means spouse or civil partner, partner (including same-sex partner), child or parent of the employee or any member of the employee’s household who is not their employee, tenant, lodger or boarder. Where time off is to take necessary action to help when a dependant falls ill or is injured or assaulted, the definition extends to "any person who reasonably relies on the employee for assistance" on such an occasion. That means an individual for whom the employee is the only person who can help - for example, an elderly neighbour with no relatives or other neighbours, who is living alone and who falls and breaks a leg. In all cases, the right is limited to the amount of time that is reasonable in the circumstances of the particular case. In most cases, whatever the problem, one or two days will be the most that is needed to deal with the immediate issues and sort out longer-term arrangements if necessary.
Who is eligible for Carers’ leave
employee’s own child(ren)
next of kin or nominated next-of-kin
partners
parents/parents of partners
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My HR department is toughening up on carers leave after abuse by staff. They now expect people with dependants to have contingency plans for if the dependant is ill - they argue that it is inevitable that dependants will be ill at some point therefore forward planning is possible. They suggest that those who have no family in the area should save annual leave 'just in case' or take unpaid leave.
Poppynurse, that’s beside the point. The Employment Rights Act 1999 gives you the absolute right to take unpaid time off to deal with an unexpected illness.
Regardless of them “toughening up “they have no choice but grant the leave.
Now they can deal with people who seem to take the preverbal via the normal disciplinary procedures if they wish.
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Our HR take the view that illness is predictable and therefore not unexpected - that it should be planned for.
They may grant one or two day's leave if we're lucky.
But after two abscences in one year it's down the disciplinary route using the attendance policy...
The original poster has already had one week off and now needs more - it's quite possible that the employer will mke life difficult for him.
They can not discipline you for exercising your rights under the Employment Rights Act. They would have to show that you have taken excessive time off and abused the system.
How they seem to think that illness is predictable i have no idea................i know i`m going to get the flu on 29th feb 2009 . My advice in the case of only 2 absences in one year is to appeal it and if necessary take things to an ET.
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Our HR take the view that illness is predictable and therefore not unexpected - that it should be planned for.
They may grant one or two day's leave if we're lucky.
The Employment Rights Act 1999 (ERA) gives a right to every employee, regardless of length of service, to take a reasonable amount of unpaid time of work "to take action which is necessary" to help when a dependant gives birth, falls ill or is injured or assaulted. A "dependant" in this context means spouse or civil partner, partner (including same-sex partner), child or parent of the employee or any member of the employee’s household who is not their employee, tenant, lodger or boarder. Where time off is to take necessary action to help when a dependant falls ill or is injured or assaulted, the definition extends to "any person who reasonably relies on the employee for assistance" on such an occasion. That means an individual for whom the employee is the only person who can help - for example, an elderly neighbour with no relatives or other neighbours, who is living alone and who falls and breaks a leg. In all cases, the right is limited to the amount of time that is reasonable in the circumstances of the particular case. In most cases, whatever the problem, one or two days will be the most that is needed to deal with the immediate issues and sort out longer-term arrangements if necessary.
Who is eligible for Carers’ leave
employee’s own child(ren)
next of kin or nominated next-of-kin
partners
parents/parents of partners
Just to clarify this, there is a right under s.57A to take reasonable time off for the care of a dependant under the Employment Rights Act 1996, s.57A (as amended) Employment Rights Act 1996 (c. 18) - Statute Law Database
The above is right, but it always helps to quote the exact bit of the statue in a grievance..
Poppynurse - Are you supplied with a crystal ball or is it in your job description that you need to have second sight?
I wouldn't mind having a look at this attendance policy they have in place!
What sort of employer is it you work for?
Kind Regards
Ell-enn
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My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.
I work for the NHS! Obviously you cannot predict when a dependant is going to be ill but HR take the view that a dependant will be ill at some point so the employee should have a contingency plan so that they can still attend work.
I argued these policies (attendance and special leave) with the assistant director of HR and he was adament that they can discipline people for poor attendance regardless of reason, the special leave policy is designed to cover unforseeable events - he says a dependant being ill at some point is forseeable. He cited cases from ET where employee was sacked for failing to achieve 95% attendance and the dismissal was upheld.
Not saying I agree with this policy.
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Re: Disabled Baby & Sacking issue
I had a boss when I worked in retail who said this very thing to me; that I should be able to predict when I would be ill and that a phone call two hours before the shift in the morning (standard policy - start at nine, call in by seven) just wasn't good enough. I'm afraid that I couldn't even come back with a snappy retort - I could only stare at him in disbelief. Words wouldn't come
I work for the NHS! Obviously you cannot predict when a dependant is going to be ill but HR take the view that a dependant will be ill at some point so the employee should have a contingency plan so that they can still attend work.
I argued these policies (attendance and special leave) with the assistant director of HR and he was adament that they can discipline people for poor attendance regardless of reason, the special leave policy is designed to cover unforseeable events - he says a dependant being ill at some point is forseeable. He cited cases from ET where employee was sacked for failing to achieve 95% attendance and the dismissal was upheld.
Not saying I agree with this policy.
If I understand this correctly, you should keep back some of your leave in case you are ill. What if you are not ill.Surely everyone taking the rest of their leave entitlement at the end of the leave year is hardly an efficient way of running a company or health service.
If I understand this correctly, you should keep back some of your leave in case you are ill. What if you are not ill.Surely everyone taking the rest of their leave entitlement at the end of the leave year is hardly an efficient way of running a company or health service.
Yes. Surely sick leave is for that purpose-you are sick. What's that got to do with annual leave?
I can understand a contingency plan being put in place for a dependant, as in this thread, and the contingency appears to be that the dad is looking after his daughter. What is wrong with that?
Would the NHS bigwigs expect employees to leave their children with strangers?
However, it is the case that an employee is often sacked for being ill and this is upheld by an ET.
This is true and has happened many times, in fact I have posted a few times pointing out this fact.
To dismiss someone for exercising their rights under the employment rights act would not be upheld unless the employer could show that the employee had abused their good will.
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Our HR take the view that illness is predictable and therefore not unexpected - that it should be planned for.
They may grant one or two day's leave if we're lucky.
I once had a manager call me into a meeting for looking after my son when he had german measles, he asked me what steps I was going to take to ensure my son wouldnt be ill again!
after looking at him for a few moments in gob smacked amazement I suggested that maybe I should wrap my son in cotton wool and lock him into an hermatically sealed room but that this would be rather expensive amd I would need a pay rise to accomodate it
I then went to HR and complained ( he had also suggested that I was lying about what was wrong with my son because his mother was a nurse and therefore he knew about these things?)
When I pointed out that not only did my son have a contageous illness but that I could have been a carrier and we had 3 ladies in our office who were in the early stages of pregnancy they not only slapped his wrists for being a pompous fool but PAID me for the days off! (He also tried to make me ring neighbours to collect my son one time when the school called me to say my son had had a bad fall and was being taken to A&E with a suspected broken ankle - I had been in the house less than a month and therefore didnt KNOW them!)
Employers attitudes to sickness stuns me, dont they realise that if they DONT pressure people to come in ill they dont end up with an office full of flu ridden miserable people purely becuase someone was too scared of losing their job to take a few days off to get better!
Once the above mentioned manager left the company the new lady in charge treats us like adults, doesnt grill you for hours if you ring in sick, doesnt put you through the grinder when you come back in, sends get well soon pressies for the ill kids when their parents are off and fights to make sure you get paid time off NOT taken from your annual leave if possible
guess what
absenteeism in our office has dropped 40% since he left and she joined!
I think all employers in this day and age should be understanding where ill children are concerned.
Its easy for them to say get a relative/childminder to care for them. Many people are on nation minimum wage and can not afford a childminder ( if you can get one at short notice ) or might have no relatives/friends able to care for the child.
I believe that most forward thinking companies recognise this and are helpful where they can be.
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Disabled Baby & Sacking issue
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. My advice in the case of only 2 absences in one year is to appeal it and if necessary take things to an ET.
Originally Posted by poppynurse
