Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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BAILIFFS - The Law and Your Rights

Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.

The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder bitstressed Novitiate

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    Default DVLA harrassment

    Hi everyone,

    I was hoping you could help me.

    I part-exed a vehicle on June 20th with a dealer which was taxed at the time and I am now getting letters from DVLA/continuous registration demanding money from me for non-payment of tax.

    At the dealers we filled in the part of the log book you need to fill in when transferring to a dealer, filled in my new log book and sent the details off to DVLA and I got my new log book back and nothing else. I did not know that you got anything from them when you'd part-exed so thought no more about it until a couple of weeks ago when I get the first letter from them. I rang DVLA and they said it was nothing to do with them and should write to the continuous registration people, which I did, enclosing a copy of the receipt from the dealers saying when I'd got rid of my old vehicle and I thought this would be OK.

    Apparently not. On saturday I got another letter saying thanks for my letter but I still owe them unless I show them a letter from DVLA saying I didn't own that vehicle any more which I didn't get! By this time I was pretty much hysterical and am really stressed out and upset by the whole matter, so my husband rang the number on the letter and spoke to someone at DVLA who said that it was a grey area and they didn't know what to do. Which was helpful... We asked for their complaints procedure and we will be writing to them soon...

    I went to the dealers that I did the part-ex with and they said it was ridiculous that I was getting this hassle because we did all the correct paperwork and that DVLA know that they have the vehicle because they have to send a list to them every month and it is on that list! They are going to write to them to tell them they have it and be very clear about the dates.

    What can I do about this before I have a nervous breakdown? There is no way they are getting money out of me because I sold the damn thing in June and it's nowt to do with me anymore. I feel completely out of my depth with it all and can't deal with this sort of harrassment. I've never left anything un-taxed or SORNed before and feel like they're just persecuting a completely honest, innocent person

    Please help

    Many thanks

    bitstressed

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  2. #2
    Basic Account Holder danny_kiernan Novitiate danny_kiernan's Avatar

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Hi Bitstressed,

    Sorry to hear you are having problems with the DVLA, mind you who doesn't at the moment.

    The first thing to do is not get stressed - you are completely in the right and the DVLA are in the wrong and you have evidence to prove it, plus a witness/witnesses from the car dealership.

    The DVLA tend to run roughshod over everyone - as they are an agency with no regards for an individuals circumstances, to them you are just a number and they are following their procedures. Saying that, not all DVLA employees are mindless automatons, some of them are indeed compassionate to peoples circumstances, even though they still have to follow their procedures.

    Anyway, you are already going down the right route, by getting in touch with the dealership - as they do have to supply a list to the DVLA as part of the DVLA's dual registration policy (as part of continuous registration legislation).
    You have however fallen into their grey area, as they have received the dealers list/details, but not your V5.

    What you should do next is follow the points that I put in my post http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...post-what.html, but if the dealership sent off the V5, get them to apply to the post office for a lost in post request - as they posted your V5 (I assume from your previous forum post) instead of you.

    Hopefully that should sort it all out, but if they insist on further action - post it up on here and people from the forum will try to help.

    If you would like to see what happens to the DVLA when they take on innocent people, check out DVLA big boys vs little old me.

    Kind Regards

    Dani


  3. #3
    Basic Account Holder bitstressed Novitiate

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Thanks for your reply!

    We spoke to them last night and it is now on record that I am no longer the registered keeper but my god they are horrible people to deal with. They still say that I owe them this money, but there is no way on earth they are getting it. We know that DVLA got the slip from my old vehicle's logbook from the dealers saying that I had transferred it to them because it was in the same envelope as the registration document for the new vehicle I had part-exed it for and I got my new registration document! It is their mistake, not mine. I proved to them that I sold it on a particular date with a receipt when they asked for proof. Nowhere in their first letter do they ask for a letter from DVLA as proof, just proof, which I sent. They're trying it on now and they know it. It's just trying to extort money out of innocent people and it's got me really angry.

    I'll keep the forum posted as to what happens next because I'm writing back to them again and am putting in a complaint to DVLA too.

    Cheers

    bitstressed


  4. #4
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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Write to your MP as well. If everyone who ever has had this happened did this, it would soon become apparent that the DVLA cannot cope, and that something would have to be done.

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  5. #5
    Basic Account Holder bitstressed Novitiate

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by dave View Post
    Write to your MP as well. If everyone who ever has had this happened did this, it would soon become apparent that the DVLA cannot cope, and that something would have to be done.

    That's a great idea. I will get on to that today and enclose copies of all the correspondance and the complaints letter I have just sent to DVLA. It's utterly disgusting that they hound people like this in the hope that we will give in and pay their unfair bills

    Cheers

    bitstressed


  6. #6
    Basic Account Holder danny_kiernan Novitiate danny_kiernan's Avatar

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by bitstressed View Post
    It's utterly disgusting that they hound people like this in the hope that we will give in and pay their unfair bills
    Well I think they rely on the fact that most people will just pay, without questioning it, a bit like the banks penalty charges - they don't expect people to fight back.

    Keeping fingers crossed for you

    Dani


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder archer2 Novitiate

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Hi people, have just come across this site and think I need your help.
    me and my wife bought a car in april and asked if it was HPI`d, dealer said yes. No problems with car, until we failed to get a tax reminder and wrote to the DVLA. we then taxed the car no probs, but we have now recieved a letter saying that our car a 2000 reg punto has been declared by a scrap dealer as destroyed. and that we cannot sell the car to anyone as it officially doesnt exist? We have all the paper work and the numbers all fit, so all I can think of is that the car was cloned and then smashed.
    Is there anything I can do, I have had to supply the DVLA with 5 to see who issued the scrapping notice.
    Help !!!! please!!


  8. #8
    Basic Account Holder danny_kiernan Novitiate danny_kiernan's Avatar

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Hi Archer2,

    Thats an odd one, one of many different things could have happened:

    1) A cloned car got scrapped.
    2) The real car got scrapped. And you have a clone.
    3) Database error at the DVLA (these are common)

    When you asked about the HPI check, did the dealer give you the HPI check paperwork?

    The local police can help you check that your car is in fact the real car and not a cloned one - give them a buzz and explain the situation. They will be more than happy to help, however if it turns out your car is the cloned one - you may end up having it seized

    Kind Regards

    Dani


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder bitstressed Novitiate

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    I got an e-mail back from the continuous registration people today saying that they have investigated fully and that I am still liable for their bill because I did not chase them for a letter saying I had sold it to a dealer. Where do I stand now? I'm completely at the end of my tether now and very upset by the whole matter. They've very kindly extended the time I have to pay...again... What can I do now?


  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder danny_kiernan Novitiate danny_kiernan's Avatar

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by bitstressed View Post
    I got an e-mail back from the continuous registration people today saying that they have investigated fully and that I am still liable for their bill because I did not chase them for a letter saying I had sold it to a dealer. Where do I stand now? I'm completely at the end of my tether now and very upset by the whole matter. They've very kindly extended the time I have to pay...again... What can I do now?
    Hi Bitstressed,

    Firstly, don't worry - it may seem intimidating that they are a Government Agency - but they are not able to do anything to you, thats why they have 'kindly' extended the deadline to pay. There is nothing kind about it, you see, if you pay it - you have accepted liability, which is what they want for their figures. So they can say at the end of their financial year n penalties issued and n paid.

    Did you use my templateicon letter btw, if you didn't, now is the time to draft a response, utilising it.

    If you have and that is their response, then quite simply, put down in a letter that you refuse to pay an illegal fine under the liberties granted to you, as a British Citizen, under the bill of rights and you would advise them to take you to county courticon, for the sum - if they believe they are totally within their rights. The fee, to pay the DVLA, on top of their illegal fine if you lose in court is minimal, but they are now not registering cases at county court as they have lost quite a number of times.

    I'm sending you a PM, just to reassure you.

    Dani


  11. #11
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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by danny_kiernan View Post
    If you have and that is their response, then quite simply, put down in a letter that you refuse to pay an illegal fine under the liberties granted to you, as a British Citizen, under the bill of rights and you would advise them to take you to county courticon, for the sum - if they believe they are totally within their rights. The fee, to pay the DVLA, on top of their illegal fine if you lose in court is minimal, but they are now not registering cases at county court as they have lost quite a number of times.
    British Subject - we live in a constitutional monarchy, not a republic.


  12. #12
    Basic Account Holder danny_kiernan Novitiate danny_kiernan's Avatar

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by patdavies View Post
    British Subject - we live in a constitutional monarchy, not a republic.
    Pat, read the British Nationality Act 1981 - the only people currently known as British subjects are people who acquired British nationality through a connection with British India, or who have declared themselves British subjects in the Republic of Ireland.

    We are however, subjects of the crown, but not called british subjects - it's a nomenclature issue.

    Most of us are, legally, known as British Citizens.

    Dani

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    Basic Account Holder gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by bitstressed View Post
    We know that DVLA got the slip from my old vehicle's logbook from the dealers saying that I had transferred it to them because it was in the same envelope as the registration document for the new vehicle I had part-exed it for and I got my new registration document!

    bitstressed
    I wouldn't be so sure. You should always send the yellow slip from your old vehicle's V5 in a separate envelope, and make sure you send it yourself- it is your responsibility. The yellow slip should be addressed to a different postcode (SA99 1BD) than the postcode you send the new vehicle V5 change of ownership to (SA99 1BA). Never ever put them in the same envelope. (I have been a car dealer for nearly thirty years and have had many a spat with DVLA) You could argue that if your yellow slip went to the wrong department it should be passed on to the relevant department, but we are talking about a massive organisation here. I should imagine it never got to the right department due to being addressed incorrectly.


  14. #14
    Basic Account Holder gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by danny_kiernan View Post
    Hi Bitstressed,


    Anyway, you are already going down the right route, by getting in touch with the dealership - as they do have to supply a list to the DVLA as part of the DVLA's dual registration policy (as part of continuous registration legislation).
    You have however fallen into their grey area, as they have received the dealers list/details, but not your V5.



    Dani
    Utter tosh! There is no such thing as this list. In fact there is no requirement for a motor dealer to even tell DVLA that he has acquired any vehicle that he has holds in stock for resale.

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    Basic Account Holder danny_kiernan Novitiate danny_kiernan's Avatar

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by gwc1000 View Post
    Utter tosh! There is no such thing as this list..
    Before posting something like this - please check your facts.

    Under the system of continuous registration, to retain their ability to operate - all dealers and scrap dealers are required to inform the DVLA of any change in ownership. This falls under the 2 pronged continuous registration policy of the DVLA (it is actually 3 pronged, but I don't want to confuse you):

    1) Owner advises DVLA of change of ownersip

    2) Buyer Advises the DVLA that they have received the vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwc1000 View Post
    In fact there is no requirement for a motor dealer to even tell DVLA that he has acquired any vehicle that he has holds in stock for resale
    You are talking out of your hat here, ALL buyers of vehicles have to advise the DVLA, not just private buyers. Please stop trying to spread misinformation, until you get your facts straight.

    If you DO actually own a dealership - you should be prepared to have the DVLA descend on you as you are breaking the law.

    Kind Regards

    Dani

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    Basic Account Holder gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Hi, Danny. I am afraid you are wrong. I am a second hand car dealer and have been dealing since 1979 having bought and sold approx 7500 motor cars lorries and vans. DVLA is welcome to come and inspect my premises, they know of me and I have trade plates from the local (Luton)VRO. I hold Account Buyer cards with British Car Auctions and Manheim Auctions. And, don't worry, you won't confuse me.
    There is NO requirement for a member of the Motor Trade to inform DVLA of any acquisition. Let me explain how the Motor Trade works:
    Mr Smith buys a brand new car, he part exchanges his old one and fills out the yellow slip informing DVLA he has sold it to the Main Agent. That's where his responsibility ends for continuous registration. He gives the main body of the V5 to the agent. The Main Agent DOES NOT inform DVLA, there is no legal requirement. The Main Agent sends the vehicle to auctionicon complete with the V5 still in Mr Smith's name. The Main Agent DOES NOT inform DVLA they have disposed of the vehicle. The car gets sold through auction and I buy it complete with Mr Smith's V5. At no point will the auction inform DVLA of this transaction, they only would if it were a private individual who doesn't hold an account with them, in which case they would only hand over the New Keeper's suppliment and send the main part of the V5 to DVLA with the new private individuals details on. When I (hopefully) sell the car I give the new owner the new keeper's suppliment and send of the main V5 (still in Mr Smith's name) to DVLA with the new keeper details filled out. DVLA will not be aware that it was me that sent it, there is nowhere on the V5 for me to enter my name. DVLA will never be aware that the vehicle went through auction or that I ever owned it. By me sending the V5 that is the first time a new registration document will be produced throughout the whole transaction. If I sold the car to another Trader I would give him the whole V5. The only thing that tracks these transactions is the invoicing we do.
    Remember some cars may pass through four or five Motor Traders a day, each one taking their profit. It is only when someone is chasing a parking ticketicon etc do DVLA learn of these transactions as they are chasing down the line.
    If you don't believe any of this go to a local Main Agent or Auction House and ask them.
    Yes, I do know what I am talking about and can assure you I am not breaking the law. If you have evidence of any legislation requiring a Motor Dealer to inform DVLA of buying a Motor Vehicle that he holds in stock for resale then please post the relevant Acts on here.

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  17. #17
    Basic Account Holder gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Hi, Danny I am quoting from DVLA's own website (today) about a scheme (TV3T) they first emailed me about last year that they are trying to impliment, to see if I would be willing to join, to which I replied I would and I am registered for, but it is not up and running yet.

    "DVLA Today Issue 29 Page 09
    Tracking Vehicles through the Trade (TV3T)- This would fill a gap in the vehicle registration system. Currently DVLA does not hold details of a vehicle's whereabouts as it passes from one motor dealer to another. "

    Please go to their website and check this yourself.

    Perhaps you should consider carefully and check facts before accusing somebody who runs a legitimate business of breaking the law.

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  18. #18
    Basic Account Holder danny_kiernan Novitiate danny_kiernan's Avatar

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Hi gwc,

    Firstly I am quite happy to say that I am wrong, I have studied all the legislation and you appear to be, in theory correct.

    So I apologise quite unashamedly to you.

    However, Are you displaying trade plates on every single car? If you aren't - you could face prosecution.

    If you buy and sell them in a normal way (without a trade licence), you Do have to fill out the V5.

    Auctions are not an exception to the rule - they are merely an intermediary between the seller and the purchaser, so do not fall under the same laws.

    Dani


  19. #19
    Basic Account Holder gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative

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    Default Re: DVLA harrassment

    Hi, Danny. Apology accepted.
    You see, the point I am trying to make that refers to the OP's topic is that a private individual when selling a vehicle to the trade MUST for their own sake (to avoid being fined by DVLA) fill out the yellow slip (V5C/3) and send it to Swansea THEMSELVES. The dealer won't bother to do it for them and certainly isn't going to inform DVLA they have purchased the car, because they are not required to by law. Even if the dealer did inform DVLA with a letter it wouldn't make any difference because he wouldn't be registering the car to himself and the previous owner would still be liable.

    I disagree with you about auctions, however. On the back of the V5C/3 it states:

    For this purpose Motor Trade means:
    A motor dealer
    A motor vehicle auctioneer
    A motor vehicle insurer with whom you have settled a claim
    A finance company with a financial interesticon in the vehicle.

    You'd be suprised how many cars I buy through auctionicon that still have the yellow slip attatched to the V5. This can result in a fine for the registered keeper.

    Trade plates are only displayed when an untaxed vehicle is used on a public road, driving to and from motor trade premises for the purpose of motor trade business only. You CANNOT park on a public road with them displayed. They only cover you for no tax. You must still have MoT and insurance. Whilst being used the vehicle is temporarily using the trade plate number as it's registration number. Really, by law you are meant to cover the front and rear number plates with the trade plates.
    If a stock vehicle is taxed then there is no requirement for trade plates whilst on a public road.



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