INTRO EDIT

Have moved this thread here as a stickie for all to read.Its an old thread but shows by each step how RLP engaged debt collectors,and following pressures from the OP finally caved in.

It also highlights one or two new bits of information.

Hopefully it will inspire members who are here seeking guidance in dealing with RLP-and if you are contacted by JB Debt collection those too.Since the thread was live-additional consumer protection and changes in debt collection guidance has been implemented.

Hi and apologies for the long post... Three years ago my neice, then aged 17, was walking out of Debenhams when she bumped into a girl she knew vaguely from her school. This girl asked her to help carry some bags and they both went out of the store. As soon as they got outside store security guards stopped them and accused them both of shoplifting. It turned out that the girl had about £500 of stolen clothing and other items and some of this was in the bag she had passed on to my neice. The police were called and they were taken to the local station.

My neice explained to both the security guards and the police what had happened and luckily they were able to watch some CCTV footage which showed that she was telling the truth. The police and store staff were satisfied with her version of events and she was released without any charges or caution. The other girl as far as we know was then prosecuted for the theft.

Nothing more was heard from anyone until a month a go when a letter was received from a Debt Collection Agency stating that thay have made many requests for settlement of the debt and would shortly be taking further action to recover the owed amount. They are claiming a debt of £140 is owed which they say is due to the costs of the security staff involved in the detention and subsequent arrest of my neice. Unfortunately my neice's family ignored the letter and did nothing. They have now received another letter saying that the DCA are prepared to accept 80% of the debt in order to close the matter but will be taking other action if no offer or payment is made.

They have now come to me asking for advice and hence my post here. I have initially suggested that they write to the DCA, stating that they dispute the debt and they have recieved no other communication other than the two recent letters. I also suggested that they ask for full details of the alledged debt and copies of all letters that have been sent.

Is there anything else that we should do at this stage and has anyone got any suggestions for the best way to proceed with this?

Thanks in advance.

A similar sort of thing happened not too long ago where a supermarket tried to bill a customer for their security guards wrongfully detaining the person in question. It is of course nonsense to bill people for this.

I would write to Debenhams head office and officially complain about this shabby behaviour.

Customer Relations

Debenhams Retail plc

1 Welbeck Street, London

W1G 0AA

Hi Rory32, and thanks for the swift response.

Is the debt and consequently our argument not with the DCA rather than with Debenhams as they have now passed it on. Can Debenhams now cancel the action taken be the DCA?

Cheers

I cant believe what I have just read.

These big companys think they can do what they want!!!

Charging for security guards, next they will be charging you to enter the store

The DCA in all likelyhood are acting as Debenhams agent in this matter. They will do whatever Debenhams tell them to do.

That's great news, thanks Rory32

I will get a letter of to them today and see what they say.

Cheers

way i see it is, your neice was cleared by the police for a crime she did not commit, you have/can obtain this from police, they have no grounds as she UNKNOWINGLY help a friend out shop with stolen good, I'd do what rory32 said write to their head office explian everything, i cant see some how that dca will take court action, ESPECIALLY as neice NEVER received a bill from them,

sum up, complain and tell em to get stuffed, your neice was duped and cops never pressed charges, they have no grounds

Thanks MrMarmite, I will draft a letter today and hopefully this will be the end of it. I will post back to the forum to let people know how it turns out.

Thank for the help

As odd as it may seem, security guards/storedetectives have exactly the same legal power as Joe Bloggs in the street. That is the power of a 'Citizens arrest'. If they they get it wrong, they leave themselves open to be sued for unlawful arrest and/or false imprisonment.

Just a thought, but a reminder of this fact in your letter may make them think twice!

They have no grounds to claim any costs under these circumstaces. The store will have a police crime number regarding the incident and should be able to substantiate your complaint. This action by them could be considered as harrassment and you may have grounds for 'vexatious litigation' unless they come to their senses, drop the pusuit and make a full apology.

Totally agree with Rory's comments

Good luck to you.

'vexatious litigation' nice 1 detectall.

just thinkin has any one ever seen a sign in shops saying:

"If you are caught stealing by our store dectives we reserve the right to invoice you for costs incurred by our store detectives"

lol mike put few idiots off stealin

Thanks everyone for the comments, they have certainly helped a very worried family. I particularly love the 'vexatious litigation' part

Cheers

as said before they cant enforce it as neice "Declaired" not guilty, get letter arranged and post it here BEFORE you/they send to debs, (just in case some smart a*s can add to it with some form of legal jargon to "kindly" pursuade debs to "get stuffed" at end of the day we have legal rights and DCA's must be realising by now they caught a cold by "TRYING" to enforce sommit they can't, i.e intimidation, threat letters ect............. here at CAG "We like intimidation and threat letters from DCA's coz not quite but nearly, we have answer for everything the idiots throw at us

Thanks MrMarmite, I am waiting to hear from the family tomorrow with the specific details like dates etc. Then I will post up a draft response and will be very grateful for any suggestions put forward for improvng the contents.

Cheers

Hi there, I have put together the following as a response to these people but would be grateful for any comments or suggestions.

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Retail Loss Prevention vs *******

On the 6th December 2004 my daughter ***** was detained outside your store in The Bridges, Sunderland and accused by store security staff of shoplifting. The Police were called and she was taken to the local police station.

The actual event which led to this point were as follows: she was in the store when she met a girl she knew from her local area. The girl asked her to help carry some bags and they left the shop. It transpired that the girl was concealing a number of stolen items and some of these goods were in the bags held by my daughter. She was completely unaware of this fact, and it was only when she was stopped that she realised her mistake in responding to the request to help this girl.

Her position and the actions she took were explained to your security staff and to the Police. Later at the police station CCTV footage was produced which clearly proved that her version of events was true. Store staff agreed and the police released her without charge, caution or reprimand. As far as we are aware the other girl was then charged and prosecuted for theft.

We were surprised to receive a letter from yourselves a few weeks after the incident, stating that **** was not to enter any of your stores in the future. But apart from this, we have heard nothing more from you or any of your agents regarding this matter.

This month we have received two letters from JB Debt Recovery pursuing an alleged debt of £139.97. Their reference number is 3589751. I have contacted them and they have advised me that is amount is in respect of the costs incurred in December 2004 relating to the above incident.

Given that it was agreed by both your security staff and the Police at the time, that my daughter was innocent of any wrongdoing, and that we have heard nothing about this for the last three years. I would be grateful if you will confirm for me that this alleged debt is not in fact owed, and that you have contacted JB Debt Recovery advising them to cease any further recovery action.

I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely

Should I mention harrassment or vexatious litigation at this point, or should I see how they respond first?

Thanks again for all the help.

I would point out to them, that they should be able to contact the police quoting the crime number reference that they have on file to verify your position.

I personally would inform them that unless a full apology is received within 7 days, their letter and any further pursuit of the issue could result in libel action and vexatious litigation being taken against them.

I think they will get the point!!!

and vexatious litigation being taken against them

Err no. You may however wish to state that you will counterclaim that any action taken against your daughter you is vexatious in its nature and shall be seeking compensation for defamation.

You may wish to also include something about releasing the story to the press if they do not withdraw this claim and issue a full apology within 7 days of the date of the letter.

Thank you both very much for taking the time to respond.

I have added the bit about the crime number and changed the last section to read...

I would be grateful if you will confirm for me in writing within 7 days of the date of this letter that settlement of this alleged debt is not due and that you have contacted JB Debt Recovery advising them to cease any further recovery action.

Should I not receive your confirmation of the above and an apology from yourselves for the distress caused to Sara by this matter. I shall make a counterclaim that any action taken against my daughter is vexatious in its nature, and I shall be seeking compensation for defamation. I will also not hesitate to contact the press with full details of the way you have dealt with this matter.

It isn't clear to me whether who the DCA's client is; your draft letter mentions 'Retail Loss Prevention vs...'

There are a number of firms who seem to specialise in this. One of them describes it as "Civil recovery a process whereby a business can recover costs and losses from a thief via the civil courts."

This is rather more serious than just a DCA trying it on; in fact, Debenhams (or whoever the DCA's client is), are actually maintaining the accusation that OP's neice is a thief, even though she was never charged or convicted of any offence.

I'd suggest taking an extremely robust line; first of all, however, it would be useful to know who the DCA's clients are. JB Debt Recovery apparently specialise in 'difficult' cases, and second and third line recovery, which suggests that they are acting for another DCA.

As a first move, I'd write to JB explaining that no debt is acknowledged, and asking them to provide evidence that any debt is owed, together with evidence of the 'many previous requests'. Make clear that the debt is disputed under the OFT guidance (which means they can't do anything until the debt is resolved), and that any action they may take will be vigourously defended and a counterclaim made.

If the ultimate client is Debenhams, send a letter in the strongest possible terms explaining that your niece was detained in error, and that since she was neither charged nor convicted of any offence, you find that their accusing her now of a criminal offence for which they have no evidence whatever both outrageous and disgraceful. Tell them you require a retraction of the accusation, a full apology, and a written undertaking that they will stop all action immediately, take no further action in the future, and their proposals to compensate your niece for the distress they have caused. Invite them, in the alternative, to proceed straight to court, where you will put them to strict proof of the alleged criminal activity, and will counterclaim for damages.

Thanks ScarletPimpernel.

Neither at any time before this incident or since has my neice been involved with the police regarding any matters like this. When they got the first letter recently, they contacted the Security Section at the Debenhams store concerned. It was the only incident they could think of that could posibly be related.

It was these people, that confirmed that it was Debenhams and in particular that is was this incident that they were being asked to pay for. The security operator they spoke to was helpful, and even went so far as to say that he couldn't believe they were chasing this after so long and especially when my neice was cleared of all involvment. Unfortunately he could offer no practical help.

I love the tone of your suggested letter. My letter will be sent tomorrow and I will post back here with any response that we get.

Cheers

I suspect that JB's clients are these unsavoury creatures: RLP - Front Page

They claim that most high street shops are their clients.

How they work...

See: Retail Loss Prevention

and: Retail Loss Prevention

and: Retail Loss Prevention

interestingly: Retail Loss Prevention

Note the type of language they use: "In the first instance RLP will attempt to recover money without court action by offering the offender an opportunity to settle their case. If they refuse, Civil Court proceedings may follow." (my italics)

Other pages have a DCA-stylee description of what may happen if a CCJ is awarded.

In other words, someone who has not been convicted of a crime will be labelled as an offender, and RLP will attempt, in DCA-style, to intimidate them into paying money they do not owe for a crime they have not committed.

However, I suspect that these are parasites of the same genus as debt purchasers and parking enforcement companies; in other words, they are unlikely to want to go to court because they don't actually have a case.

It may be worth determining, from the DCA, exactly who their client is; if it is RLP, then hit them with the letter. Debenhams should also be on the receiving end of your wrath, since they obviously benefit: Retail Loss Prevention, but notice that RLP operate on a 'no win, no fee' basis, except for defended cases, another reason why I think a court is the last place they want to be.

Hi ScarletPimpernel and thanks for the effort you have put into this for me.

It sounds as if these are the 'parasites' concerned. They do list Debenhams as one of their clients and we have had two letters so far. The first offering "a final opportunity to resolve this debt". Despite this being the first we have heard about if for three years.

They then went on in this letter to say they were "prepared to offer a settlement of 80%" in order to close the matter. If no payment was made then it "may result in our client referring the matter for legal action"

The second letter basically says either pay the full amount or we will have no other option other than to consider legal action.

Funny how it is almost word for word from the text on that web site and yet there is no mention of the RLP name. I am sure that these companies play games with parent and subsiduary company names, probably staffed by monkeys all based in the same office, in the hope that it causes those not able to fight to just pay and not argue

Cheers

And thanks for making me , I almost spilt my coffe when i saw the reason you gave for editing your last post

And we're off again. I cannot undertsand why these people wil not simply deal with a problem that is presented to them... we received a response from Debenhams this week and edited for ease of posting only it amounts to...

We have received you letter, we have contacted RLP and they have asked to see a copy of your letter for investigation, if you want to ring them here is their number. I am sure you will be contacted by them in due course.

This was clearly not the answer we had hoped for. I have drafted the following as a response but would be grafetulf to have any critique of the letter or comments if you think we should just let them get on with their investigation in their own sweet time. TIA for any posts

I write to you today to express how apalled I am by your department's complete disregard to any level of acceptable customer relations.

 

I have enclosed copies of my earlier correspondance concerning my daughter being pursued and threatened with legal action by a debt collecting company alledging an oustanding debt due to Retail Loss Prevention.

 

The facts in this case are clear, no debt is due and my daughter is innocent of any wrongdoing in relation to this incident. This was established by your own store staff, the security staff present and the police who were subsequentlty called at the time. I explained this in detail in my last letter. As a member of the public and without any other authority I have made two phone calls and have been able to verify the above facts to be true.

 

It is obvious that any action taken by RLP and subsequently by JB debt Recovery must have been instigated initially by yourselves. I would therefore like some explanation as to why the staff in your 'Customer Relations Department' were unable or unwilling to make simliar phone calls, establish and verify the facts, and then insist that no further action should take place. As an internal matter this would have taken very litle time to complete.

 

This whole incident has caused significant distress to my daughter, and I find it quite unnacceptabele that we should be expected to wait whilst you simply pass the matter over, thus delaying any posible resolution to this matter.

 

My expectation in response to this letter is that within 7 days you will: write to my daughter with a retraction of the false accusation made to her and offer a full apology. I also expect a written undertaking that Debenhams, Retail Loss Prevention and JB Debt Recovery will stop all action immediately and take no further action in regard to this matter in the future. I would further be interested to hear of your proposals, if any, to offer some form of compensation to my daughter for the distress you have collectively caused.

 

I have sent copies of all the correspondance referenced to John Lovering, Chairman of the Board of Directors and to Rob Templeman, Chief Executive so that they are aware of how their customers are being treated and in the hope that this may bring a speedy and satisfactory resolution to this matter.

 

I look forward to your response.

sweet, my only comment would be to use one below, I removed the typo's for you

I write to you today to express how appalled I am by your department's complete disregard to any level of acceptable customer relations.

I have enclosed copies of my earlier correspondence concerning my daughter being pursued and threatened with legal action by a debt collecting company alleging an outstanding debt due to Retail Loss Prevention.

The facts in this case are clear, no debt is due and my daughter is innocent of any wrongdoing in relation to this incident. This was established by your own store staff, the security staff present and the police who were subsequently called at the time. I explained this in detail in my last letter. As a member of the public and without any other authority I have made two phone calls and have been able to verify the above facts to be true.

It is obvious that any action taken by RLP and subsequently by JB debt Recovery must have been instigated initially by yourselves. I would therefore like some explanation as to why the staff in your 'Customer Relations Department' were unable or unwilling to make similar phone calls, establish and verify the facts, and then insist that no further action should take place. As an internal matter this would have taken very little time to complete.

This whole incident has caused significant distress to my daughter, and I find it quite unacceptable that we should be expected to wait whilst you simply pass the matter over, thus delaying any possible resolution to this matter.

My expectation in response to this letter is that within 7 days you will: write to my daughter with a retraction of the false accusation made to her and offer a full apology. I also expect a written undertaking that Debenhams, Retail Loss Prevention and JB Debt Recovery will stop all action immediately and take no further action in regard to this matter in the future. I would further be interested to hear of your proposals, if any, to offer some form of compensation to my daughter for the distress you have collectively caused.

I have sent copies of all the correspondence referenced to John Lovering, Chairman of the Board of Directors and to Rob Templeman, Chief Executive so that they are aware of how their customers are being treated and in the hope that this may bring a speedy and satisfactory resolution to this matter.

I look forward to your response.