Charges from the 90's = Bankruptcy

[minnie]

Hello all,

I've been lurking here for a while now and as a result have started the ball rolling claiming £2300 from NatWest since 2000 .

In a previous life, however, I ran a small business, had an account with RBS from approx 1989 to 1996 and was charged heavily.

The business failed in '96 and I became voluntarily bankrupt, lost my business, house, pension, health, everything. All my accounts and bank statements were handed over to the Official Receiver at the time of bankruptcy. I have been a discharged bankrupt since 1999, incidentally.

I happen to still have copies of 2 sets of accounts from '92 and '93 and charges and interest for those 2 years alone were £4184.00. On a turnover of less than £30,000 in the early years this was a huge drain on my finances and I never recovered. I estimate that charges and interest to be in excess of £12,000.00 for the 7 year period. It is my opinion that the charges levied on my account were a major contributing factor to the failure of my business .

At the time of Bankruptcy I had an overdraft of almost £5000 with the RBS and this was added to the list of creditors, i.e. not paid.

I know it may be a long shot after so long but I would like to attempt to recover the charges on this account and I am currently searching the forum for any relevent info regarding my situation so if anyone knows of any threads or has any tips or advice please throw them my way. I've been following this thread and have just found spiceskulls threads so will be reading those.

Specifically, I'm trying to find out the following:
Are the bank likely to try and reclaim the £5000.00 overdraft that remained?
Has anyone has had any luck getting statements from so far back?
Would the OR still have all my documents from '96 or is it not even worth going down that route?

Ta, Minnie

[LondonPam]

Hi Minnie. I can't answer some of your questions but I do know a bit about a few other points.
The £5000 overdraft will have been taken into account when you were made bankrupt, they therefore can not try and claim that from you.
Banks, and many other organisations, are under no obligation to keep data for longer than 6 years. I think you would therefore find it very difficult to claim back your charges from then. I know a few people on here are trying to go back further than 6 years but they also have charges within that period(if that makes sense!)
One point, if you could claim back the money, is that as you were made bankrupt then I'm not sure if the OR could legally say that the money was his to spread out between your creditors.
Hope someone has some inspiring messages for you.

[minnie]

Hi Pam,

thanks for the reply.

Yes, I agree that as the overdraft was listed amongst the creditors that they cannot make a claim. Also that the statute of limitations would preclude them from doing so anyway at this late stage.

I've just read the Data Protection Act relating to the insolvency service and there may be a glimmer of hope as it appears that the file relating to a bankruptcy must be kept for at least 7 years after completion of the file (time of discharge I'm hoping). I need to read it in more detail to see what data might be held but the chances are it still exists.

I'm pretty sure that the OR cannot make any claim on any earnings or assets once a person is discharged from bankruptcy; there is a period of time (3 yrs in my case) where all earnings are carefully monitored should there be any 'spare' (yeah right, couldn't afford the petrol to get to work sometimes!) for creditors but once discharged, no more claims can be made.

I was also wondering if, based on other peoples trouble getting bank data over 6 yrs old, whether a figure based on my annual accounts could be used to base a charges/interest figure on. I may be able to get copies of these from past accountants. Ya never know!

Minnie

[LondonPam]

It's worth a try Minnie. There is a section on here that talks about the 6 year business, I just can't seem to find it at the moment. Maybe someone will be able to point you in the right direction.

[minnie]

Do you mean this thread Pam? If so, I've already got my beady eye on it.

Thanks though.

Minnie

[joneshousehold]

Minnie
Sorry to take so long, working away from home yesterday and today.

I hope the little bit of information I have isn't a bit of a disappointment now.

What I wanted to say is that once a case has been settled by the Official Receiver they do not keep any paperwork they had from you. It will have been destroyed. They may have some details such as the accounts or other calculations of the debts so it may be worth a try.

Some banks (well, Abbey) have supplied statements going back beyond 6 years so it will be worth a try asking. If it were me I would approach both the Official Receiver and the bank. There will be more than just statements that you could ask the bank about. What about correspondence and proof of debt? They may have copies of what was sent to the Official Receiver.

I see you have had some good advice already on whether the bank can claim back the overdraft written off. I have no information about whether this is correct but it certainly looks logical.

You seem to have a bit of a job on your hands I think. Your claim will benefit from a lot of background research so good luck with this and let us know how you get on.

Cheers

[minnie]

Hi Joneshoushold,

thanks very much for the post and NO information is a dissapointment, on the contrary and the support alone is worth it's weight in gold .

It's interesting what you say about the records the OR may have, I spent most of last night reading The Insolvency Service website (oh joy) and their obligations regarding the Data Protection Act. It quite clearly states that the 'case file' must be kept for at least 7 years after the file has been closed (discharge) and that copies of the file and any supporting documents (accounts, bank statements etc), are to be provided when asked for. What it doesn't specifically refer to of course, is whether they are required to keep those supporting documents for the same 7 years, so you may well be right.

There is a very useful consumer Data Protection Act guide here and in more detail here on The IS website should anyone be interested.

The forms, DPA02.HQ and DPA02.OR(b), that The IS require for a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) don't seem to be available from their site. Has anyone heard of these? I resorted to sending an email in the end to ask how I can get the forms.

I understand that what I am trying to achieve is a long shot but I might as well have a go. As you suggest JHH I'll send a a request to both the bank and the OR and see what comes back.

BTW, The IS keep records for at least 7 years, I was discharged in Aug '99 . By the skin of me teeth I'd say.

Minnie

[joneshousehold]

Minnie, just in the knick of time then so go for it.

My experience of the OR is only through work and I know they have told me before that they do not keep business records once the case is sorted out. Perhaps you are right about the case file and the supporting documents.

They are generally helpfully but sometimes a bit under resourced so sometimes you end up with a bit of a runaround. Admittedly I haven't dealt with them for quite a while now, probably a couple of years or so and perhaps things have changed now.

Good luck anyway. Let us know how you get on, sometimes it just triggers another thought process and a few new ideas get mentioned.

Do you know, your username is driving me nuts. I spent all day yesterday singing Minnie the Moocher (the Cab Calloway classic recently used by Halifax) who as we all know was a low down hoochy koocher with a heart as big as a whale! Oh no I'm off again - such a great song. They just don't write words like that anymore.

[minnie]

That's hilarious joneshoushold, nice to know someone somewhere is singing my name and I do, of course, have a heart as big as a whale...... oh no wait..... that's my a**se. Darn it!

I'll assume there are no supporting documents to be had from the OR and then if I do get something it'll be a bonus.

Thanks for your advice.

I'll post back when I have more to report.

Minnie

[minnie]

Joneshousehold, I just had a thought.

When you had dealings with the OR through your work, were you applying for information from the Individual Insolvency Register, the public register of undischarged bankrupts, disqualified directors, IVO's etc that anyone can search? You can search the register online now but I dare say that's quite a recent development and previously you would have had to apply to the OR.

3 months after the subject is discharged/released, the information is, indeed, removed from the register and destroyed. But that's just the public register. The origianl file and possibly any supporting documents are held by the OR for 7 years it seems.

What I haven't found out yet is when the 7 year rule was put in place and whether it may have been different before and if so, what it was!

See how desperately I clutch at those straws?

Minnie

[joneshousehold]

Sorry Minnie, I would normally get full access to all OR records. They frequently tell us the records are destroyed once a case is closed. It would be interesting to see what they tell you.