Advice please - ex landlord & gas safety

[crazyworld]

Hi all, i'm hoping someone might be able to help me, i've only recently moved to a new address due to safety issues in my previous property - I did bring up these issues with the landlord throughout the tenancy but they were dealt with at snails pace, the issues were only rectified earlier this year, about 2 months prior to moving out of the property.

I didn't feel that it was wise to start any proceedings with the landlord until after i'd moved out as I was worried about retaliatory eviction.

About 8 months after i'd moved into the property, a gas safety check was carried out on the combi boiler, and I received a gas safety certificate (i've checked the person who carried out the check was CORGI registered by the way)

Under the "Spillage Test" column, there was a pass listed
Under the Appliance Serviced column No was listed, and "yes" was the answer given to "Appliance safe to use"

However, under "Give details of any faults" were the words "No visible earth bonding please contact electrician (owner)"

Apparently, the landlord should have carried out the necessary work automatically before any prompting from myself on the earth bonding issue, but, as I said before, this work was only carried out earlier this year after much prompting from myself.

About a month and a half before I moved out I was due to have a new gas meter fitted, during the fitting, the man who came round said that there was a leak, and he'd have to stop the gas (This was on a Thursday), the gas was only unstopped on the following Tuesday, and by then, the earth bonding which was necessary had also been sorted out.

I'm wondering if there is now anything I can do to recover any compensation due to the landlord failing in their obligation to ensure the safety of the property in respect of both the lack of earth bonding, and the gas leak - the gas was leaking from the same boiler!

Can anyone advise on this situation please? Surely I should be entitled to a percentage of my rent back to the landlord's failure to carry out their obligations?

I have copies of the gas safety certificate, and the warning/advice notice issued.

I just found out today, apparently, I should have also been issued with copies of documents by the landlord of any remedial work undertaken, but i've never had any such documents.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help.

[crazyworld]

Ok, i've just got off the phone from a very helpful lady from Shelter (i'd definitely recommend giving them a ring if you're unsure about your rights - although they are it seems very busy at the moment)

For anyone else perhaps experiencing similar problems (PLEASE keep in mind though i'm acting against my former, NOT existing landlord), her advice was that there are several options available:

1 - Report the landlord to your local environmental health department

2 - Contact your gas supplier to see if they're pursuing their own investigations - it could prove useful if you and your gas supplier keep in contact as you'll be able to provide each other with potential evidence

3 - The above situation shows that the landlord failed to act in accordance with section 11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 stating:

"
(1) In a lease to which this section applies (as to which, see sections 13 and 14) there is implied a covenant by thelessor -

(a) to keep in repair the structure and exterior of the dwelling-house (including drains, gutters and external pipes),
(b)to keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the dwelling-house for the supply of water, gas and electricity and for sanitation (including basins, sinks, baths and sanitary conveniences, but not other fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of the supply of water, gas or electricity), and
(c)to keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the dwelling-house for space heating and heating water. "

Advice should be sought from a specialist solicitor and/or the CAB regarding possible claim for damages - they may be able to take on the case.

Hope this has helped someone else.

[Esio Trot]

Originally Posted by crazyworld

Apparently, the landlord should have carried out the necessary work automatically before any prompting from myself on the earth bonding issue, but, as I said before, this work was only carried out earlier this year after much prompting from myself.

Whilst it is good practice, there in no legal requirement for services to be cross bonded. However, if you got a bolt due to lack of bonding, then you could sue. There are thousands of private dwellings that have no cross bonding - or use the water pipe as a common earth. It is not dangerous unless there is a rarely-occurring particular type of fault somewhere.

Originally Posted by crazyworld

About a month and a half before I moved out I was due to have a new gas meter fitted, during the fitting, the man who came round said that there was a leak, and he'd have to stop the gas (This was on a Thursday), the gas was only unstopped on the following Tuesday, and by then, the earth bonding which was necessary had also been sorted out.

Like a car's MOT, the gas certificate only confirms that at the time of the test it conformed to published specifications. I guess it was Transco that capped your supply. My opinion of them is slightly above that of dog poo - they will cap anything for the slightest reason.

On one of our properties, the tenant phoned Transco and complained of "yellow flames". The chap turned up and capped the supply. A second gas engineer (plus another who had a gas analyser) checked it out and did a pass. The tenant phoned Transco again because of "Yellow Flames". They attended and capped the supply again, telling the tenants they needed a new boiler. Next a council contracted gas engineer attended and again passed the boiler.

The yellow flames were just the odd flicker due to a cast iron heat exchanger above which (as every decent mechanical engineer will know) will always drop particles of iron onto the flames when alight - these particles burn yellow.

The gas engineer conducts a pressure drop test. The regulations allow for small drops in pressure over a fixed timespan. Most Transco chaps will cap anything - "better be safe than sorry" is their mode of operation, and will cap a supply for even the most spurious of grounds.

Originally Posted by crazyworld

I'm wondering if there is now anything I can do to recover any compensation due to the landlord failing in their obligation to ensure the safety of the property in respect of both the lack of earth bonding, and the gas leak - the gas was leaking from the same boiler!

Under what law did the landlords fail in their obligation? The property, eventually, had bonding installed. The boiler was attended to when the issue occurred. Landlords cannot be expected to have divine knowledge regarding issues that arise. They can only respond to issues when they become aware of them.

You state you had safety issues at your previous property as well. May I suggest that if you treat your landlords past, present and future as an enemy - reporting them to environmental health unreasonably, you will find that you will be moving property at the end of every fixed contract you enter.

[crazyworld]

Originally Posted by Esio Trot

Under what law did the landlords fail in their obligation? The property, eventually, had bonding installed. The boiler was attended to when the issue occurred. Landlords cannot be expected to have divine knowledge regarding issues that arise. They can only respond to issues when they become aware of them.

You state you had safety issues at your previous property as well. May I suggest that if you treat your landlords past, present and future as an enemy - reporting them to environmental health unreasonably, you will find that you will be moving property at the end of every fixed contract you enter.

I don't think you read my post properly Esio Trot. Please re-read it, I stated that there were safety issues at my previous property ONLY, NOT at my existing property. My existing property is highly satisfactory in my opinion, and my landlord is much more professional in its dealings. I suggest you read posts properly in the future. Additionally, no, it was NOT Transco who capped the supply, and the company itself is also pursuing this matter.

I have posted a 2nd message above to which you have not referenced in regard to your question on the law which the landlord failed to abide to.

In regard to the above the landlord had a duty to ensure they kept in good repair and working order the installation relevant to my post. They obviously did not do this, and no servicing of the boiler was ever carried out, despite repeated requests. Failure to maintain the installation very obviously led to a gas leak from the boiler.

I have sought further advice on this issue today, and additional to the above, the landlord failed in their obligation to ensure there were "no restrictions whatsoever" which would affect "the tenants enjoyment of the premises."

I hope this clarifies the position for you, and once again would advise that you read posts properly before you attempt to defend unsavoury, and unprofessional landlords in future.

[Esio Trot]

Originally Posted by crazyworld

I don't think you read my post properly Esio Trot. Please re-read it, I stated that there were safety issues at my previous property ONLY, NOT at my existing property.

My apologies if you have misunderstood my post. I merely took your comment regarding your previous property and tagged this onto the two safety issues you raised with your current property

Originally Posted by crazyworld

I have posted a 2nd message above to which you have not referenced in regard to your question on the law which the landlord failed to abide to.

I did read your second post, and I failed to see where you made the link from your recent experience to s11.

Originally Posted by crazyworld

In regard to the above the landlord had a duty to ensure they kept in good repair and working order the installation relevant to my post.

Was there a gas safety certificate in force at the time the gas was cut off? From reading your post, I presumed there was. If so, then your landlords have done what the law requires: undertook a check of the gas system and appliances, which at the time were given a pass.

Originally Posted by crazyworld

They obviously did not do this, and no servicing of the boiler was ever carried out, despite repeated requests. Failure to maintain the installation very obviously led to a gas leak from the boiler.

I would be grateful if you would tell me the "obvious" - I cannot see any fault with your landlords.

Anything mechanical is liable to break at some time. coming back to the car, an MOT only states condition AT THE TIME OF THE TEST. If the engineer when doing the certificate had noted a decline in some component, or something borderline, I'm sure it would have been noted on the certificate. It wasn't.

Originally Posted by crazyworld

I have sought further advice on this issue today, and additional to the above, the landlord failed in their obligation to ensure there were "no restrictions whatsoever" which would affect "the tenants enjoyment of the premises."

May I suggest that you invite a representative of your landlords to reside with you at no expense to yourselves and also not to restrict you in any way. That way should any incident occur, the landlord can be advised without a moments delay.

Originally Posted by crazyworld

I hope this clarifies the position for you, and once again would advise that you read posts properly before you attempt to defend unsavoury, and unprofessional landlords in future.

Originally Posted by crazyworld

My existing property is highly satisfactory in my opinion, and my landlord is much more professional in its dealings.

Perhaps I am being unduly thick today. I am giving a point of view on behalf of your landlord. It seems from the above two quotes that even you are unsure on whether your landlords are unsavoury or even professional or not.

[crazyworld]

Originally Posted by Esio Trot

My apologies if you have misunderstood my post. I merely took your comment regarding your previous property and tagged this onto the two safety issues you raised with your current property

No, it's the other way round, you misunderstood my post, I stated very clearly in my first post that this was related to an EX LANDLORD. In my second post in the thread I further stated "PLEASE keep in mind though i'm acting against my former, NOT existing landlord"

I did read your second post, and I failed to see where you made the link from your recent experience to s11.


Was there a gas safety certificate in force at the time the gas was cut off? From reading your post, I presumed there was. If so, then your landlords have done what the law requires: undertook a check of the gas system and appliances, which at the time were given a pass.

I would be grateful if you would tell me the "obvious" - I cannot see any fault with your landlords.

The Obvious is the fact that the landlord failed to maintain the installation described in accordance with section 11, as I stated to you previously, NO service was carried out on the boiler despite numerous requests to do so, because of safety concerns.

Anything mechanical is liable to break at some time. coming back to the car, an MOT only states condition AT THE TIME OF THE TEST. If the engineer when doing the certificate had noted a decline in some component, or something borderline, I'm sure it would have been noted on the certificate. It wasn't.

They had a duty to maintain the boiler, they were fully aware of my safety concerns, they NEVER carried out any servicing on the installation.

May I suggest that you invite a representative of your landlords to reside with you at no expense to yourselves and also not to restrict you in any way. That way should any incident occur, the landlord can be advised without a moments delay.


Perhaps I am being unduly thick today.

You said that, not me. I hope that someone like yourself will be defending my ex landlord. (Please see next response i'm sure that a judge would be unimpressed with such disregard for safety concerns)

I am giving a point of view on behalf of your landlord.

Yes, that's quite obvious. It seems that you agree with the landlord's unprofessional conduct.

It seems from the above two quotes that even you are unsure on whether your landlords are unsavoury or even professional or not.

I've made it very clear all along what I think, and what the facts are in regard to my ex landlord. It seems you are the one who is confused, may I suggest that if you are confused it may be advisable for you to have a lie down for a short period of time before attempting to "assist".

[crazyworld]

Ah, now it all becomes rather clear, after just clicking on your profile you appear to be a letting agent Esio.

Now far be it from me to judge your own professional conduct on your responses to legitimate safety concerns, and my own feelings that the amount of rent due should have been reduced to compensate for the landlords failure to abide by the law and the tenancy agreement, I hope that you don't show such disregard for the safety of your own tenants?

Additionally, I hope that you don't attempt to tell your tenants that you don't need to earth any installations as its only on very rare occasions that someone could get a fatal electric shock due to this failure to act. (That was your argument to myself in a prior post)

Finally, I hope that none of your tenants receive a fatal electrick shock because you do not feel that that the tenants you manage deserve to have earthing installed.

If they ever do, I hope they receive true justice, and you are forced to compensate the victims family.

That is the last i'm saying on this subject to yourself, your responses show that quite obviously there need to be tighter regulations on rogue landlords/letting agents who do not feel that they have obligations or , quite obviously abide by the law.

[Joa]

Esio has proven himself to be a consistently valuable addition to this forum. His experience of the "other side" can only help us, even if we do not like what he says. Sometimes we all get upset by being told what we do not like to hear. Sometimes we genuinely have no case, no argument. In all circumstances, we should not lose our temper, especially with posters who try to help and even politely apologise for getting something wrong.

[crazyworld]

Joa, I have attempted to be polite in numerous responses to Esio.

I have stated the facts very clearly laying out that in this case the facts are related to an ex landlord, Esio has responded in a patronising tone to me in all responses.

I have stated very clearly that the advice I have received were for my own circumstances, in relation to an ex landlord, and were not to be meant as advice for people with a current landlord.

Esio has ignored this fact repeatedly, and continued to respond in a patronising manner.

I have not lost my temper, I merely refuse to have a dialogue with such a person.

[Esio Trot]

Originally Posted by crazyworld

Ah, now it all becomes rather clear, after just clicking on your profile you appear to be a letting agent Esio.

It is a shame that I cannot find out a little more about the poster, as the profile is completely blank.

I have also learnt in life that as a human being, failure and errors are inevitable, the more so where emotion is involved - but then emotion also allows us to appreciate Mozart or Puccini, so I wouldn't do without it. I agree that I did misread crazyworld's postings, and I am sorry for my mistake there.

Originally Posted by crazyworld

Now far be it from me to judge your own professional conduct on your responses to legitimate safety concerns ...

I hope that you don't show such disregard for the safety of your own tenants?

Additionally, I hope that you don't attempt to tell your tenants that you don't need to earth any installations as its only on very rare occasions that someone could get a fatal electric shock due to this failure to act. (That was your argument to myself in a prior post)

Finally, I hope that none of your tenants receive a fatal electric shock because you do not feel that that the tenants you manage deserve to have earthing installed.

If they ever do, I hope they receive true justice, and you are forced to compensate the victims family.

I hope I was careful enough not to opinionate on the right or wrongness of the scenario, I was simply telling the law as I understand it. I do not condone dangerous situations, but I am careful not to gold plate the law into something it is not.

Even though I have misread the current/former status of the OP's problem tenancy, I have tried to be factual with regard to the legal position of a landlord. Unless I am again mistaken the chronology of events are:

• An annual gas safety check was conducted in month 8 of the tenancy. The certificate stated that the boiler was not serviced, and was passed as safe, save the recommendation to seek advice regarding electrical bonding as none was visible. There was no mention of the boiler needing a service in the engineers opinion, so I doubt this was an issue; there was no mention of any "necessary" works.
• An unspecified time elapsed here, depending on the OP's total length of residence. ***
• At some time prior to a month and a half before the OP vacated works to do with electrical bonding had been undertaken.
• A month and a half before the OP vacated the gas meter was changed and as part of the change the internal supply was checked for pressure drop (a leak). One was found that the meter changer decided required isolation of the entire internal supply.
• Three working days later the gas supply was re-instated, with presumably the leak having been fixed.

*** In any case where action for "failing to keep in repair and proper working order" under s11, much depends on the age and condition of the item being considered. An example: under the newest regulations used by NICEIC contractors, any plug that "might" be used with an external portable appliance (lawn mower, car vacuum cleaner etc) should be RCD protected. If not, then a Code 1 is logged on the report meaning it needs "urgent attention". This was not in the previous regulations. In this instance under s11 the owner is not obliged to add RCD protection - the existing installation is still in "repair and propert working order" i.e. not broken, it just does not conform to the latest regulations.

Despite the previous paragraph, s11 is to all intents and purposes defunct because as from April 2006 new regulation were introduced called Health and Hazard Safety Rating System (search on HHSRS for copious information). This has changed the definition of landlord liability and obligation.

As far as I see the situation, the earth bonding was addressed. Whether the OP can show the landlord was "obligated" to undertake the works because they were "necessary" and also that the time frame was unreasonable because of the risk is key. From what was written, I doubt if this is sufficient to start an action.

Regarding the gas leak. At the time this occurred there was a current certificate, which at the time passed the spillage test. Who is to say how, why or when the leak became sufficient for the meter changer to cap the supply - I can't? In practical terms the problem was sorted within 3 working days, and although the time was expanded by the intervening weekend (plus having practical experience of trying to get an available engineer as they all tend to be busy) I would suggest that the correction did not take an inordinate length of time.

I did not intend to reply in so detailed a manner but I did consider it important to contextualise the OP's scenario and highlight potential weaknesses in embarking on a legal action.

If I were the OP's letting agent, I would welcome a complaint letter in the above situation. And particularly a solicitors letter.

[crazyworld]

Ok, i'm a fairminded person esio, and I take your points on board in the manner with which you have expressed those (and thank you for that) in your last post.

I may have been slightly defensive in my previous post, and must tell you that I was defensive as I did take issue with the fact that you appeared to be defending my ex landlord AND their failure to at least carry out good practice - there were many other issues of disrepair while I was at my previous property which did heighten the defensive nature of my reply to yourself eso, that wasn't your fault, and so I must apologise for that. The issue concerning the gas was one of many problems, but it seems to me the most serious in terms of safety. (Mind you, there were also live wires hanging out of the walls when I moved in which I didn't realise were live until someone came around to install the cooker, and was informed of the fact then!)

The very fact that I continually discovered disrepair and attempted to highlight this on several occasions to the landlord, often with no satisfactory action carried out, was the reason why I did request the servicing of the boiler, several people commented to me when they visited that it didn't look safe. On at least 2 occasions, the landlord informed a member of my family that the boiler would be replaced, although it never was.

I do take on board now as I said what you're saying, and will add that to the notes I have, thank you eso, the comments concerning the legal implications here are appreciated.

By the way, concerning your point about my profile being blank, I am a private citizen, I have no professional interest in such matters, I am merely finding out about my rights. I do believe where people have such a professional interest, and there is a possibility that they may be issuing advice which wouldn't be detrimental to their own position, but possibly, detrimental to the others, then they should openly state that.

I am not saying here that you have done so, as I said, I was merely attempting to get advice on the facts available, i'll now check that advice compared to what I have already received.

Regards.

[crazyworld]

Right, just an update on this, I have shown copies of all the evidence I have regarding various disrepair issues at my previous property to an expert in this field.

It turns out according to this expert that the landlord was only just acting within the law doing the bare minimum needed on all occasions, apparently the landlord failed to act with good practice.

I'm absolutely furious that although I was subject to lengthy delays before any work was carried out on the numerous occasions it was needed, or after I raised concerns the landlord it seems was acting only just within the law.

I don't believe that the adequacy of their responses allowed me to fully enjoy my tenancy at my previous property, and although the expert agreed with me on that they said that basically there was nothing that could be done about bad practice.

These unprofessional landlords can make you wait for months to carry out work on a property, but they're quick enough asking for the next months payment, or sending out a reminder.

The system stinks.

Right that's my rant over with, I will now put all my efforts into reclaiming the unlawful bank charges applied to my account.