have we got a leg to stand on???

[karens25]

hi..
my partner owns a property which he let to a girl who worked for him.. (no contract was ever drawn up or bond ever paid!) everything was fine, (occasionally they'd been late with their monthly rent but not often) until she handed her notice in, she has a new job but had to work a month in hand.. at the same time her partner lost his job.. this left them with no money.. he is now working again but they are three months behind with the rent.. she said she would pay the rent weekly this happened for one week, and that wasnt even a quarter of the monthly amount, never mind about the arrears.. and we havent seen or heard from her since.. she is not answering or returning our calls, i know perhaps weve been a bit foolish but thought we could trust her..
any advice gratefully received..

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

karen25,in reply to your post:

Yes,to be perfectly blunt with you without being unkind it is VERY foolish to let out a property without a contract in place! However,the deposit depends on who you are renting the property to and how well you know him/her/them.


Anyway, after that little rant let me see how I could possibly help you!!

Please answer the following questions:

1.When did your partner purchase the property?

2.When did the girl move into the property?

3.When did the girl serve her notice to terminate her employment with your partner?

4.Was it agreed in the offset that the girl's partner was to share the property with her or not?

5.How has this girl being paying the rent? i.e.Cheque,cash or bank credit/standing order?

The answers to the following questions should hopefully enable me to assist you further.

[karens25]

hi nightmare..
thanks for the response.. dont worry about ranting i didnt expect anyoe to say we havent been rather foolish!
anyway in answer to your questions...

1.When did your partner purchase the property?

he bought it around about 1994

2.When did the girl move into the property?

december 2004

3.When did the girl serve her notice to terminate her employment with your partner?

july 2006

4.Was it agreed in the offset that the girl's partner was to share the property with her or not?

yes they moved in together

5.How has this girl being paying the rent? i.e.Cheque,cash or bank credit/standing order?

they have mainly paid by standing order but some months the payment hasnt gone through and they have paid cash

she gave him a cheque yesterday for one weeks rent (since starting her new job she is paid weekly so asked could she pay her rent weekly) when he asked about the arrears she said she would have to "sort" something?!

i know she has had it far too easy for far too long!!
thanks in advance for your help..
karen

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

karen25,thanks for your answers to the questions.

I have two more further questions to ask you before I post my complete response:

1.What is current amount of the outstanding arrears?


2.What is current rent that your partner is charging the tenants?


The answers to the above questions together with your previous answers should enable me to hopefully assist you further.


Nightmare4banks

A tenancy does not need to be in writing for one to exist or arise. It is not in anyway foolish if one lets without a written agreement, although it may save arguments and disputes at a later date. From what you say it appears that there is at the very least an assured shorthold for 6 months, by default.

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

I agree with JS's post that the current situation for karen25's partner is the fact that an Assured Shorthold Tenancy has been created by default.

However,I will reiterate my view that IT IS foolish not to have a signed and dated tenancy agreement mainly because:

1.Otherwise in this case had karen25's partner let out his property prior to the revamp of the housing law - I think it was 1996.He would now be lumbered with tenants on an ASSURED TENANCY by default.This is why I asked karen25 the question regarding the tenants date of occupying the property - question 2.

2.This would mean the owner would have to have a reason to evict the tenants,they would have full security of tenure and most importantly the property would be worth much less due to the security of tenure - probably around 30% less.This would make the tenancy's value easily a five figure sum value whereas an Assured Shorthold Tenancy is worth alot less.

3.There have been previous cases where owners have had to pay former tenants very large sums of money in damages due to the tenant having security of tenure running into tens of thousands of pounds.Of course,what has happened in each case the owner had physically unlawfully evicted the tenant(s) or driven
the tenant(s) out of the property.

[karens25]

hi guys..

thanks for the rsponse a bit over my head all this legal jargon.. sorry!!

in answer to your questions nightmare they currently owe him £975 plus this weeks rent (another £81.50..) she failed to show over the weekend.. again!! i feel she is really taking the p**s and they are meant to pay £325 pcm

karen

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

karen25,in reply to your post:

1.Are the tenants both working or not at the moment?If not they may qualify for help with the rent.

2.If they do,should not accept the rent cheques directly due to possible attempts to clawback in the event of the tenants' fraud in applying for housing benefit.

3.Your partner needs to contact the tenants and get some firm proposals regarding the payment of the rent - arrears and future payments.


HOWEVER BEFORE YOUR PARTNER DOES ANYTHING...

I have one more question for you

When was the last time your partner increased the rent?


The answers to the above questions should hopefully enable me to assist you further.

[karens25]

hi...
thanks for your help and advice..they both had new jobs, but last night she appeared with a cheque for two weeks rent... post dated!! and said her fella was out of work once more.. so more problems lay ahead i fear..
there has never been an increase in rent since they've been in the property..
karen

[blacksheep1979]

I would sit them down and explain that you want all future rent to be paid on time and all arrears brought up to date within a given period of time (state one). Get them to sign something agreeing to this and should they miss a payment by a single day I would honestly start proceedings to both remove them and get the money they owe back. You will surely be able to find better tennants and this time will be a bit wiser and get a deposit/contract etc. Good luck.

[karens25]

thanks for that.. its certainly time he showed them who is in charge methinks! im sure she will have sought advice on what rights she has as a tenant.. thats what you get for letting to "friends"
your comments are very much appreciated..
thanks again k

[Nightmare4banks]

karen25,in reply to your post:

In my view,your partner has two options:


OPTION ONE - KEEP TENANTS IN PROPERTY

1.To keep the tenants in the property and make sure they pay the rent and some of the arrears on a weekly/fortnightly/monthly basis - this should be to suit the tenant.The reason I say this because if your partner requests £40 per week towards the arrears and they cannot afford it,there would be no point.It should be a small amount say no more than £10 per week towards the arrears plus maintaining the weekly/monthly rent payments up to date.

2.Make sure that all future payments are paid into a bank account by standing order or cash credit that is in your partner's name.This is so that he does not have to wait for the cheque(s) to arrive.He should not be fussy about the frequency that he is paid as long as he is being paid.

OPTION TWO - EVICT THE TENANTS

Eviction can be 2 main types based

1.on rent arrears.

or

2.on the owner wanting a possession order under the shorthold clause.

This is called an Accelerated Possession Order.

Personally if I were in your partner's position I would seek a possession order.

Normally this is automatically granted due to the fact that the tenant has a shorthold agreement and in this case the fixed term has lapsed by default.

Keep it simple, if you want to go down this route ask the County Court for the necessary forms plus pay the appropriate fee.You will need the date that the tenants moved in the property.

I hope you find this information useful.

If you need more help,just ask.

Keep us posted.

All the best!

[karens25]

hi nightmare

an update...

iv taken on board all your advice, my o.h seems intent on giving them the benefit of the doubt.. time and time again!!
the latest thing? she turned up yesterday and told him the (above mentioned) post dated cheque would bounce.. it has!! (another £25 added to the ever spiralling amount owed!!) she now says they are on a debt management plan whereby they pay £200 pm and this company pays their creditors on a pro rata basis.. she told my o.h that they would be sorting the rent from now on.. he doesnt understand any of this (having never been in debt himself!!) but correct me if im wrong.. landlords arent actually creditors are they?

and.. how the heck are they going to pay £325 pm (not taking into account any arrears!) from the £200 meant for all their creditors?!
in the past four months he has had £80 from them!! they now owe £1100. but he refuses to evict them or even question what she says!

you would be forgiven for thinking you cant help them who wont help themselves (my o.h) but id like to be armed with the facts whren finally he does see sense!! please god!

also she says these people will sort a mortgage for them (they are currently £28.000 in debt) as they are keen to buy the property.. i feel this is a stalling tactic..

sorry about the rant.. feel much better now

thanks in advance

karen

[blacksheep1979]

I would suggest getting rid - don't throw good money after bad. You could be renting the property to other tennants in a months time - tennants who will have a contract, deposit and (hopefully) will pay the rent. Issue them with an LBA and take them to court if they fail to pay in full within 14 days. They are taking you for a ride and only firm action like this will work. It may take time to recover the money but at least you will be on their list to pay via the debt management plan and they won't be racking up any more debt to you.

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

karen25,

A FEW QUESTIONS....

1.How can these folks with £28,000 debts be in position to buy your partner's property?It would be very interesting to see how they would see to buy a property that in fact they cannot afford to pay the rent for.Regardless and funny enough this maybe a good way out of the problem for your partner but bear in mind he would be liable for some Capital Gains Tax upon selling the property.Your partner would need to obtain some independent advice regarding this matter.

2.Normally,a debt management company would put the rent as a priority debt because failure to pay could lead to eviction.So can your partner request to see the debt management plan papers that these folks have been put on?
By seeing these papers your partner could see for himself what is really going on.


PLUS...

a.Also regarding the eviction issue,I would stick to my previous suggestion for your partner to aim for a possession order rather than the rent arrears because I feel your partner will be wasting his money plus in all cases there are hearings normally for rent arrears whereas possession orders it is not the case.

b.Whatever your partner does,he will have to establish to move in date - by going back into previous regular rent payment dates because this can then be concluded despite no written tenancy agreement exists as judges are fairly fussy about this issue.This is because notices have to be issued prior to the desired eviction date based on the start date of the original tenancy.

c.However,as long as your partner can show the court that he has been taken for ride and been very patient and understanding with these tenants - this should hopefully swing in his favour.

Anyway,keep us posted.

[karens25]

thanks guys
your help is very much appreciated.. i dont believe they can possibly buy the property,since it will take them 11yrs to pay off 28k at 200 per month. i will suggests that asks to see the dmp papers.. we will see whats going on then, they have been on this plan for a couple of month now and so far he hasnt heard anything..
will keep you posted
thanks again
karen