Bloor & Grange Vs 100+ Residents - No gas bill paid since 2006

[chris1977]

Hi,

I'm writing this on behalf of over 100 residents in the hope that somebody may have been in a similar situation and / or will be able to advise on where we stand.

I live in one of over 100 managed apartments in a block which was built around 2006. I myself am a tenant, however, there is a mix of tenants and owner occupiers, all in the same situation. Since 2006, no resident has paid for the gas supplied to their property due to an ongoing dispute between the Management company and the energy supplier. When this dispute is eventually resolved, every resident will be liable to pay the Management Company for energy supplied to their property, potentially hundreds of pounds. In addition, residents will have moved on and presumably the bill will have to be covered by the remaining residents.

There is no dispute that our properties have received a supply of energy, however, there is a dispute over not having the option to select the most competitively priced supplier.

As I understand it, there is a communal commercial / industrial meter on site, which records the supply to the entire building, with each individual property having its own sub-meter to record individual usage. I know from personal experience that none of this information is stated in the tenant's lease so when residents have moved into the property and attempted to set up their Gas supply, they are unable to do so as their individual supply is not recorded by Transco. I myself spent weeks trying to sort this out and eventually gave up after being passed from pillar to post, including by the Management Company!!!

I believe that both tenants and owners have the legal right to choose their energy supplier and not have this dictated to them by the building management company. As I said earlier, certainly for the tenants involved this was not agreed to at the conclusion or during the tenancy! Currently, 40 out of the 100+ residents have agreed to support this cause, it is after all in their interests to do so, and more are expected but without a clear understanding of our rights it will be very difficult to push this forward so I would be very grateful if someone with a little experience and / or knowledge of this or similar situations, would respond with any advice or a pointer in the direction of relevant legislation.

Cheers

Chris

[MrShed]

I am not particularly knowledgeable on this area. However, although you have a legal right to decide upon your utility supplier, I would imagine that this right is only applicable when there is an individual supply. I would also doubt it is unlawful in any way to have a central supply like this. I sympathise, but I personally think(as a layman in this particular area) that there isnt much legal basis to fight this.

I'm sure others will be along in due course however....

[raydetinu]

Why is the management company in dispute with the energy supplier? is the management company buying it from them and then to charging you?
Transco or an other normally supply all pipes and metering etc. at a cost when the building is constructed. The individual tennants or owners would be responsible for gas supplied and take out agreements accordingly. Transco dont supply gas!!!
The management company IMHO cant charge you for the gas unless it is in the contract somewhere that they can!
Also they cant charge tennants or owners for gas supllied to previous tennants or owners.
I think you all need legal advice, try CAB or a solicitor.

[MrShed]

Originally Posted by raydetinu

Transco or another normally supply all pipes and metering etc. at a cost when the building is constructed. The individual tennants or owners would responsible for gas supplied and take out agreements accordingly. Transco dont supply gas!!!
The management company IMHO cant charge you for the gas unless it is the a contract somewhere that they can!

Agreed - but my understanding is that this isnt a "normal" situation. I also suspect that it will be in the leasehold contract.

Do you get bills directly from the relevant supplier, or from the management company?

[chris1977]

Hi All, thanks for the responses so far. I'll try to answer all questions which will hopefully clarify:

However, although you have a legal right to decide upon your utility supplier, I would imagine that this right is only applicable when there is an individual supply

There should be an individual supply, by virtue of the fact that all properties have a sub-meter within.

Why is the management company in dispute with the energy supplier? is the management company buying it from them and then to charging you?

Unfortunately I'm not sure of the technicalities as I don't have access to this information. Also, this is third and fourth hand information, however, I will talk to the person leading this "revolt" and I'll see if I can get a little more info.

The management company IMHO cant charge you for the gas unless it is in the contract somewhere that they can!

It's certainly not in the tenancy agreement. Furthermore, how can a management company act as an energy supplier? This just doesn't make sense to me.

Do you get bills directly from the relevant supplier, or from the management company?

We don't get any bills, not from the supplier nor the Management Company....

As I said, I will have a chat with the bloke who's leading this to see if I can get some more info, unfortunately he doesn't have access to the internet so it has to come through me.

Cheers

Chris

[MrShed]

My thoughts on your replies(at least the ones to me):

- No bills = no cost. Simple as. They cannot charge you more than it costs them to receive, and without a bill impossible to figure this out. You have a right to receive a bill, irrespective of a clause in the agreement.
- The fact there is a sub meter does not say anything with regards whether there should be an individual supply./

[chris1977]

Originally Posted by MrShed

My thoughts on your replies(at least the ones to me):

- No bills = no cost. Simple as. They cannot charge you more than it costs them to receive, and without a bill impossible to figure this out. You have a right to receive a bill, irrespective of a clause in the agreement.

Hi MrShed. I hear what you're saying, but here's the problem. If, say, British Gas were billing individuals directly and had not produced a bill in 2 years then we would have redress under the Billing Code, however, the energy supplier may well have billed the management company so that does not apply. Perhaps it depends on how Bloor decide to move forward with this. If it is decided that individuals will be billed directly by the supplier, then the Billing Code may apply as no resident will have received a bill from the supplier in over 2 years. If Bloor decide to split the bill, then they may have a big fight on their hands as I don't see how they can act as an energy supplier.

- The fact there is a sub meter does not say anything with regards whether there should be an individual supply.

I guess not. But, it does give any supplier the ability to record individual consumption doesn't it?

[MrShed]

You miss my point. Bloor can act as a utility provider, but at cost price. Therefore, they have to account for the usage, and therefore bill you, showing the unit price and how many units you used. Therefore no bill(from Bloor or anyone else), no obligation to pay.

Depends on the set up of the sub meter - not neccessarily.

[chris1977]

Originally Posted by MrShed

You miss my point. Bloor can act as a utility provider, but at cost price. Therefore, they have to account for the usage, and therefore bill you, showing the unit price and how many units you used. Therefore no bill(from Bloor or anyone else), no obligation to pay.

Hi MrShed, thanks for clarifying. Can you point me in the direction of the relevant legislation so I can have a read for myself? Don't mean to question what you're saying as you obviously know what you're talking about, I'm only sceptical because of my earlier comments regarding redress. If a consumer has an issue with an energy supplier there is a clearly defined escalation process, i.e. Complaints department --> Energywatch --> Ombudsman --> Court, as well as various legislation with which an energy supplier must comply, however, I would not expect this to be the case for a Management Company.....

As always, any advice welcome.

Cheers

Chris

[chris1977]

Originally Posted by MrShed

You miss my point. Bloor can act as a utility provider, but at cost price. Therefore, they have to account for the usage, and therefore bill you, showing the unit price and how many units you used. Therefore no bill(from Bloor or anyone else), no obligation to pay.

Just another thought, I understand that no bill = no obligation to pay, however, surely that doesn't stop them producing a bill at a later date, thereby introducing that obligation to pay.....

[MrShed]

I wish I could remember the relevant legislation to be honest - I cant remember.

That isnt the case for the Management company(they are not classed as a utility company) - that is why they have to "resell" at cost price.

You are correct, they can produce a bill. But the bill must reflect the cost. With that in mind, I think you are entitled to view the original bill from the actual utility company detailing the cost per unit, and their calculation of how much you owe.

[MrShed]

Ah ha

Glance your peepers over this Chris:

http://ofgem2.ulcc.ac.uk/temp/ofgem/...ew/archive.jsp

[chris1977]

MrSHed, you're a legend. Thanks mate

[MrShed]

No worries - let us know how you get on

[chris1977]

Originally Posted by MrShed

No worries - let us know how you get on

Will do.

Should there be some sort of contract in existence between tenants / homeowners and the Management Company which sets out the terms for the supply of energy, as you would expect with any other service provider / customer relationship? Certainly for tenants I would expect this to be in the Tenancy Agreement, however, if you know of any relevant legislation (again ) I'd be grateful of a steer....

Cheers

Chris