Shared Periodic tenancy - Im moving out advice?

[kookla]

I am moving out of my shared flat (with two others) which was initially a fixed term for 6 months which then became a rolling contract.

The landlord agreed that I can find someone else for my room. I have just given my one month notice and she has emailed me saying she accepts my moving out and someone else moving in but will let me know about new terms and conditions going forward for the tenants.

I know that technically she treats this as a new tenancy agreement and so I am assuming can increase the rent (? is this correct). I was hoping she would just allow the tenncy to keep rolling but did have my doubts (she has been difficult from the start)

My main questions is:
I gave notice today (the 7th Nov) so have to move out by 6th Dec. Say she lets my flatmates know the new terms and conditions in a weeks time and the rent has been raised too much - do they have to give notice in order to not pay the increased rent? and if they do have to give notice when do they give it from as it states in our agreement we have to give 28 days from the day we pay rent (the 7th) so technically they would be too late to give notice this month and avoid paying the extra increased rent for at least one month?????? That doesn't seem fair that they can't see the new terms and conditions and have time to read over to decide if they move out without having to incur the increase.

Basically I am worried for them and would feel bad that they had a rent increase just because I was moving out.

Please help with advice????

[MrShed]

Question - why are you finding a new tenant? You have no need to.

Sorry to be an idiot! but can you clarify the exact questions - I dont get what you mean about giving notice?

[kookla]

Sorry my post was probably a bit confusing.

I am on a shared tenancy with two other friends which is now rolling. They don't want to move out (only me) so I asked landlord if they could remain on tenenacy and I could find someone to replace me. She said that was fine.....now shes talking about a NEW tenancy and NEW terms and conditions for the new person and my two friends who are staying.

I basically want to know if the landlord says (for example)
They have to pay rent plus a 15% increase and
They have to sign a 12 month tenancy
and they don't want to sign this new agreement - what do they do?
Its too late for them to give one month notice from the day I gave one months notice and hence they would have to pay one months increased rent - correct?
If they don't agree to new tenanacy basically when do they move out....sorry I know this must be very confusing!!!

[MrShed]

Points:

- If you leave, the tenancy ends. A new tenancy MUST be created(or is automatically created).
- If they dont want to sign this agreement, they dont have to.
- The landlord can evict giving 2 months notice - in practice, three months, due to the way the dates will work(ie they must give notice to expire at the end of a rental period, and I assume you will be moving out at the end of a rental period, therefore if she gives notice on the 8th of dec say, this would not expire at the end of feb but instead at the end of march, as it requires two clear rental periods).

Does this help any?

[Ed999]

Originally Posted by MrShed

Points:

- If you leave, the tenancy ends. A new tenancy MUST be created(or is automatically created).
- If they dont want to sign this agreement, they dont have to.
- The landlord can evict giving 2 months notice - in practice, three months, due to the way the dates will work(ie they must give notice to expire at the end of a rental period, and I assume you will be moving out at the end of a rental period, therefore if she gives notice on the 8th of dec say, this would not expire at the end of feb but instead at the end of march, as it requires two clear rental periods).

If Kookla leaves, the tenancy does NOT end.

The tenancy can only be ended by giving a notice to end the tenancy, which any tenant can give, but which is only valid if it complies with the legal requirements for such a notice, summarised here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-eviction.html

Summary - "To end a periodic tenancy, the tenant must give the landlord one period's notice, in writing, expiring on the last day of a period (i.e. expiring on the day before the rent is due). Thus if the tenancy is a monthly tenancy the tenant must give not less than one calendar month's notice. It is best to give the notice a few days early, because it will be invalid if less notice is given than is required."

It is NOT clear that the notice given by Kookla complied with these requirements. Indeed, it cannot have complied, since less than one clear calendar month's notice was given. So the tenancy cannot have ended.

It is not even clear what the terms of the notice that he gave were, so we cannot be certain that it is even capable of ending the tenancy.

Under the "rolling" statutory tenancy now in effect, the landlord can always give 2 months notice to terminate the tenancy, it is true.

But since a new tenancy would expose the landlord to all the consequences of the Tenancy Deposit Scheme, the landlord might be very reluctant to take that step:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...it-scheme.html

The rules for rent increases are at http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-increase.html



Advice & opinions on this forum are offered informally, without any assumption of liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

[MrShed]

We have had this debate already Ed, and I dont plan on having it again. I am 100% confident that the tenancy ends should the tenant in question vacate. ARLA agrees with me, NAEA agrees with me, the relevant laws agree with me, and various rental experts in this country agree with me. I will also remind you that everyone else on the forum disagreed with your point of view last time this issue came up. The poster will in this case have to decide who to believe.

As I say I am not getting into this discussion. However, I will ONLY say this - the standard form of giving notice does NOT have to be followed should the landlord agree. The landlord has clearly agreed in this case.

[kookla]

Wow thanks for your help guys - didn't mean to start such a heated debate but your advice is very helpful.

I belive I have given proper notice - I contacted landlord over a month ago and she told me it was fine if I moved out (giving the contractual 28 days notice) and found a replacement. I gave notice a wee bit early on the 6th Nov (we pay rent on 10th each month so technically I didn't have to give notice until 10th Nov to move out 9th December). It was sent recorded mail and emailed to her and shes indicated she has received it.

If the Landlord calls me on the 15th of November for example and sends my other flatmates a new agrement to take effect from the day I move out with some changes (i.e rent increase etc) do my flatmates have to sign and if they don't would they just move out on 9th Dec (when I do and when the current agreement ends and new one is to start) or would they have to give notice from the next rent date (10th Dec) or can they just remain on old terms (and she can give 2 months notice if she wants to)?

As I said, all very confusing, I think I maybe have the gist but as its a weird situation (and they might not want to have an empty flat over Xmas period?) we may have some leway is agreeing to keep the tenancy rolling until the new year etc.

[MrShed]

I think my post above answers these questions. However, I am sure Ed will disagree....

[Ed999]

Originally Posted by MrShed

We have had this debate already Ed, and I dont plan on having it again. I am 100% confident that the tenancy ends should the tenant in question vacate. ARLA agrees with me, NAEA agrees with me, the relevant laws agree with me, and various rental experts in this country agree with me. I will also remind you that everyone else on the forum disagreed with your point of view last time this issue came up. The poster will in this case have to decide who to believe.

As usual Mr Shed blusters, but cites no authority for his purely personal, and unrealistic, view of the law.

The common law rules for ending a statutory periodic tenancy are quite clear, and they are set out here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-eviction.html

Since the o/p has not complied with them, the notice given is not valid, and the tenancy has not ended.

I fail to be convinced that the conversation reportedly held by one tenant with the landlord, made purely verbally, without witnesses, and without consideration (i.e. money) changing hands, is capable of amounting to a contract or the variation of a contract.

Clearly, it is not capable of that. The need for consideration (i.e. payment) is paramount, in the absence of a written deed.

A careful analysis of the need for offer, acceptance, and consideration in the formation or variation of a contract is essential. Mr Shed, IMHO you should not be offering advice on this contract.



Advice & opinions on this forum are offered informally, without any assumption of liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

[MrShed]

Ed you have not even read the OPs post. The notice was sent recorded delivery.

I dont know what on earth you are talking about regarding money changing hands when a tenancy is being terminated not beginning.

Notice has been given according to the contract, which as you know overrides the "common law" (misquoted by the way, as it is statute law not common law) requirement, as it has NOT infringed upon the rights of the tenant.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong, pure and simple. As usual, you do not respond to the points made, just reiterate your wrong ones already made.

I'm going to release my gritted teeth and let go of this thread, as you are really peeing me off tonight with your arrogance and misinformation.

[Ed999]

Originally Posted by kookla

I belive I have given proper notice - I contacted landlord over a month ago and she told me it was fine if I moved out (giving the contractual 28 days notice) and found a replacement. I gave notice a wee bit early on the 6th Nov (we pay rent on 10th each month so technically I didn't have to give notice until 10th Nov to move out 9th December). It was sent recorded mail and emailed to her and shes indicated she has received it..

If rent is paid monthly, the contractual notice period is one calendar month, not 28 days.

The notice must be received by 8th November, and must expire on 9th December, the day *before* a rent day.

But you still haven't stated what the notice actually said, so it is still impossible to tell whether it is capable of ending the tenancy.

As I have previously pointed out, a variation is incapable of having legal effect in the absence of payment of consideration money.

Originally Posted by kookla

If the Landlord calls me on the 15th of November for example and sends my other flatmates a new agrement to take effect from the day I move out with some changes (i.e rent increase etc) do my flatmates have to sign and if they don't would they just move out on 9th Dec (when I do and when the current agreement ends and new one is to start) or would they have to give notice from the next rent date (10th Dec) or can they just remain on old terms (and she can give 2 months notice if she wants to)?.

No, your co-tenants do not have to sign. They can hold over on the old terms. The landlord must serve a section 21 notice, and obtain a court order, to evict them. This will take 3 months or more, at the old rent.

Your co-tenants can walk out and HAND BACK THE KEYS on the last day of the fixed period, without giving any notice. See http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-eviction.html

[MrShed]

Originally Posted by Ed999

As usual Mr Shed blusters, but cites no authority for his purely personal, and unrealistic, view of the law.


A careful analysis of the need for offer, acceptance, and consideration in the formation or variation of a contract is essential. Mr Shed, IMHO you should not be offering advice on this contract.

This in particular I find highly unneccessary and arrogant. I am just as entitled to advise on this as you. Just because you think you are correct. Well guess what - so do I.

[MrShed]

I will quote from a HIGHLY respected letting law specific solicitor:

In a
recent case it was decided that a surrender of the tenancy by one joint Tenant binds all
the joint Tenants, provided it is a periodic tenancy, but legal notice must be given to all
Tenants i.e. a minimum of one month depending on the terms of the tenancy

There is NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER the the notice given by the OP and hence accepted by the landlord is a surrender of the tenancy.

If(and when) you disagree again, I will post you the link to the full article, so that you can check it is not coming from the same fantasyland law source that your information comes from.

[Joa]

kookla- did you check out Shelter: Ending a tenancy or licence
Especially: The actions of each individual person will affect all of your rights. For instance:

* if one of you gives notice to the landlord, the agreement will normally automatically be ended for all of you. None of you will have the right to continue living there.


I assume that a new tenancy will be created by landlord accepting rent from your remaining joint tenants and your replacement. New tenancy can lead to new terms, like new rent level.

Joint tenancies are the pits for me So I'll leave it to experts to give defitive advice.

[MrShed]

http://www.painsmith.co.uk/painsmith...es/sharers.pdf

I strongly suggest you read the article before you post again Ed.

Painsmith are highly regarded in the field.

I have no more to say on the subject. With the greatest of respect(although I mean that with a pinch of salt, as you have shown precious little respect to me recently), you are just going to wind up looking like an idiot if you continue to argue against such blatant valid sources contradicting your position.