Oldham Council

[threeamp]

OMG this is a long drawn out one.. Two and a half years ago my local Council (Oldham) used some of the money it received to put some alley gates up at each end of the passage way to the rear of my house, which they said would increase security etc. Very nice they are too btw, However, whilst the contractors were putting up the gates they were also to remove the old surface of the road, tarmac and landscape the area. While they were doing this one of them reversed a mini digger through my back wall (if you imagine the opening to Corrie that is what the passage used to look like). The back wall they wrecked formed the outer wall to my old outhouse (shed and toilet). Instead of telling me they had hit my wall they tried to botch the job and just cemented things in place hoping i wouldnt notice. The roof to the outhouse was four of those really heavy slate slabs which if fell IMHO would have killed someone so i got them to agree to come and have a look. It took 12 months to get them to agree to take down the entire out house and put in a wooden fence, when they came round first time they made a mess of the whole thing by leaving my yard full of bricks and although i cant prove it i noticed the very valuable slate slabs had vanished. I finally managed to get the work to a satisfactory standard 22 months after the first incident. You are probably thinking in that case i shouldnt be posting on here!! Wrong. It seems that when they took down the out house and removed the old toilet that they simply put large chunks of brick down the waste pipe which has been slowly blocking my waste pipe to my house. Last month the whole toilet and waste system was blocked. I contacted the council to ask them to send the jetting team round to clear my drain as i had no idea it was related to the out house at the time and i just wanted my loo to work. I was told by the council that they dont have a budget for that kind of work so i pointed out that i was prepared to pay, i was then told that the jetting team had gone home so i pointed out that the councils own website stated they offered a 24 hour service. The following day i tried again to get the jetting team out and still nothing so i contacted my MP who contacted them and they phoned to say they would be out the next day. I emailed them a complaint saying that the treatment i endured was terrible and shouldnt happen, i had no loo or water for three days ffs. The jetting team arrived in the late afternoon so i took time off work to come and allow them access. The man from the council jetting team said it was my fault the system had blocked as the waste pipe from the old loo had caused it.. picture the scene. I got onto the council once more to really let them know what i thought and lodged a stage one complaint, they are supposed to have 15 working days to respond to this and its now 22 days. If i add up all of the time i have spent trying to sort out just the waste pipe issue its three half days holiday i have had to take plus all the phone calls but if we add in the rear wall we are talking months. I have noticed a few people on here mention small claims court and i wondered if i should add up all my expenses plus the £52 i paid for the jetting and take them straight there?

[Ed999]

On the surface, this does not appear to be a landlord and tenant dispute.

If you are a Council Tenant, with a lease or tenancy, please explain when it was granted, what period it is granted for or whether it is periodic, and what provisions in it are relevent to this matter: i.e. damage to the premises by the landlord's workmen.

It appears to be a potential service charge dispute, if you are a long leaseholder and the landlord has negligently damaged the premises through its agents or employees.

If you are not a Council tenant/leaseholder then you may need to consult a solicitor. This looks on its face to be a negligence claim against the contractor or the principal, i.e. the Council, for damages on the usual basis, as it would appear to be a type of road traffic accident in which the vehicle involved has caused property damage but no personal injury.

It isn't feasible to give advice on an RTA claim here, as this is a landlord and tenant forum. But if you have any landlord and tenant issues arising from this, do please post those matters here.

[threeamp]

My main issue is the treatment handed out by the council in just about every aspect. They called me shortly after i posted and asked if the contractor had been out yet, i told them they hadnt and commented on the open sewer situation informing them that if i saw a rat they would be second to know.. first being the local rag!! This seems to have sparked a response as i got two further phone calls saying that a letter had been written explaining what went wrong (i asked them to summarize this over the phone but they declined...). I can now only wait for the letter to arrive but i did point out to them that any letter is 8 days late per their own standard for complaints and asked if they have also explained that in the letter (again nothing).. I am still hoping to settle this between myself and the council amicably but they seem to be insisting i go the hard route. Should my next step be to calculate what i have lost in terms of holidays and other expenses (travel from work and phone calls etc) and send them a letter before action?

[Ed999]

On the surface, this does not appear to be a landlord and tenant dispute.

If you are a Council Tenant, with a lease or tenancy, please explain when it was granted, what period it is granted for or whether it is periodic, and what provisions in it are relevent to this matter: i.e. damage to the premises by the landlord's workmen.

It isn't feasible to give advice on an RTA claim here, as this is a landlord and tenant forum. But if you have any landlord and tenant issues arising from this, do please post those matters here.

[GlasweJen]

I disagree, council tenants are tenants (obviously) and they have rights just like the rest of us.

Questions to ask yourself going down the small claims route are:

1. can you prove this? i.e have you a letter or statement from the council about the wall, the outhouse being demolished, etc. If not then get onto them, i think you can S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them, if you have to request all notes on any repairs done to your property and the land. Also get a letter from the jetter who said that the outhouse is causing this as it will be the basis of your claim. Has your plumbing been damaged in any other way? Could you get a plumber who isn't related to the council to come and back up the claim? Can you prove that the council botched the outhouse job? This needs to be water tight, the judge shouldn't doubt whos fault this is.

2. is it worth it? have a few tradesmen give written statements on how much this would cause to fix. Then work out how much you missed out on from work, hourly rate x amount of hours taken off. Add on court fees and a fair amount for taking time to write letters and to cover postal expenses. Remember small claims is less than £5000 so if it's lots of work or if it's going to be time consuming you might need a lawyer to take it to big court.

3. Don't forget you have to be seen to act reasonably. You absolutely must write to the council giving them 28 days to reply then comes your LBA where they get 14 days (and include a copy of the N1 you're going to submit just to show you're serious). If they cave and say they'll do it you make them specify dates and times, you should get absolutely everything in writing or recorded on the phone.

Good luck getting this fixed!

[Ed999]

It has not been established that the o/p is a tenant.

His legal rights will depend on whether or not he is a Council tenant, as the terms of his lease will (of course) only come into play if he is a tenant of the particular Council which has caused the problem.

If he is not a tenant, he needs to consult a solicitor. A claim for damages is too complex to be handled without one, and this forum is not the place to start. This forum is only for leasehold issues/problems.

If he is a tenant, he is welcome to post here about any lease-related issues, such as the potential service charge implications of what has happened.

Even if he is a tenant, this is not the place to get advice on the Road Traffic Accident (RTA), negligence or damages aspects of his claim.

[GlasweJen]

If he is a tenant, he is welcome to post here about any lease-related issues, such as the potential service charge implications of what has happened.

Even if he is a tenant, this is not the place to get advice on the Road Traffic Accident (RTA), negligence or damages aspects of his claim.

I'm sorry Ed but I'm going to argue the contrary, this particular accident directly involved the poor OPs land which makes this a pretty good starting point since CAG don't have a "oops someone knocked into my property" area. Obviously a lot of advice will depend upon wether the OP is a council tenant or wether he owns the house but the name of the forum is kind of self explanatory.

A lot of CAGers post up a problem to see if its worthwhile even getting a legally trained person to look at it and that's why I posted the reply I did. As this is a self-help forum if my answer didn't suit the OP he/she can say so but it may help someone further down the line.

Also note that the OP isn't talking about the actual RTA but work done after the RTA, the digger didn't block his plumbing - the workmen did when they botched the job. In court he'd have to prove that the council were liable to fix the initial damages (i.e they're the ones who knocked down the wall in the first place) and that's where the RTA becomes relevant for his claim.

To the OP, you might want to try posting a copy of the original post in the general forum just to see what gets said there, the general forum is read by more people so you'll have more experienced eyes looking at it.

[threeamp]

Thanks to all for the info so far, The council have confirmed to me in writing (email) that the contractor was responsible for the damage to the wall and the work was carried out by the contractor to remove the old outhouse and put up the new fence. It has only come to light about the waste pipe issues last month, it seems i dont use the loo as often as i might think!! I posted this in landlord/tenants thing as i wasnt sure where else i could post it and everything else related to councils that wasnt a tax issue was in here so sorry for the confusion. After almost three years of being messed around by OMBC and Groundwork (the contractor) i have had enough, i have every email back and forth regarding my house including the one from my MP saying he had instructed them to attend immediately. My main concern now is the fact i currently have an open sewer in my back yard as the waste pipe has no lid or cap on it.. FYI the council and the contractor have both agreed that it was the fault of the workmen who did the original job in writing. I am still seriously peeved about having no loo for three days aswell and the fact that they answered my complaint 8 days later than they state they will in their own service standard..

[threeamp]

On another note i am not paid the earth and i have used my holidays and the patience of my employers to run round for these fools so whilst i have been paid for my holidays by my employer i have still used my much valued annual leave entitlement to sort out someone elses mess. The costs for the work needed is under £150 plus the £52 it cost for the jetting clear of the pipe and my time i will be lucky to breach 4 figures in actual costs never mind £5000. I basically want the local authority to come and sort out the mess they have made to a proper standard and apologise for the inconvenience to me by way of a goodwill gesture to cover my time and expenses. At one point last year my rear yard was full of bricks making it unusable as an exit or entry and them some star from the council decided i needed a street light outside my house so they blocked my front door too without telling me, if there was a fire i had no exit.......gotta love em

[threeamp]

Morning All, the council finally sent someone round to sort out the open sewer so all things at chez threeamp are on an even keel. I still havent heard from them about what went wrong and could do with some help about how to word my letter regarding compensation for all of the messing about etc. I realise i need to state the facts and then justify the expense but i am not sure how exactly, any ideas?

[threeamp]

Update for all to see, I have had a letter from my MP stating he has written on my behalf to the council, they are now two weeks late responding to him so he has hit the roof and i have now been promised a response by friday... I can only wait. I have also had a call from the council asking what it is i want from them to sort this out so i explained how much money i have actually spent trying to sort this out and how much of my time they have wasted in the process. The man from the council promised to come back to me also. If anyone can advise me on whether i can not pay my council tax, let them take me to court for it and then produce all of the emails/letters/bills etc as a defence on why i dont owe them a penny. Basically use their day in court to get a judgement of my own against them and let them pay for the pleasure. Is it something i could do?

[GlasweJen]

absolutely not. NEVER withhold council tax, they can send you to prison for that.

[threeamp]

I see, i was still planning to pay it as it will be next years bill. As you know they send out the bill in april and set out installments, if you miss the first two installments they summons you to court which is where i was thinking of hatching my dastardly plan. I will leave that alone following your advice and issue proceedings myself through the courts. I am concerned that they may try the "that was last years budget" trick when it comes to refunding me the £50 for the initial jetting at the moment though.. I am also tempted to attend the MP's surgery to ask him publicly why the council dont care what he says (hence the late answer) and see if i can wind him up enough to go in there blasting on my behalf. Its 3 years since the incident now and i have been messed about like you wouldnt believe. Two of the directors at the council has seen fit to not even answer emails in the last few months, surely that is the least courtesy one can expect from a local authority?

[GlasweJen]

I would definately get back to your MP.

I wonder if it's worth getting some advice in the general forum as you may be able to take this to court as a civil case and get your money back that way. I daresay your N1 argument would be that you were out needless expense due to the councils incompetence and damage to your property.

[threeamp]

Thanks i will keep on his case to see where he gets to. I only posted this on here as i couldnt come up with a place to put it in the first instance. Its a proper mess by the council and they know it so hopefully it will be sorted this week. I will nevertheless keep everyone updated.

[threeamp]

Update, a meeting took place yesterday with the complaints officer and the the directors of the two departments of the council carrying the most guilt for all of this and i have been promised an update asap. Not confident but heres hoping. My local MP is expecting a repsonse tomorrow anyway as that is what he has stated in his letter to me so either way i dont mind. It may be a little early to say thanks to everyone who has helped but i will risk it. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO HAS HELPED ME!!

[threeamp]

They have offered £52 which is only for the jetting i shouldnt have paid for... i await the final offer.....