Deposit deductions. What am I paying for?

annie s · 5th October 2007, 14:12

Hmm big messy story..
But the gist is

If I have been quoted a price to have some repairs/alterations to curtains due to shrinkage do I have the right to request that the work is actually done and the receipt is sent to me as proof?

The reason for asking is that I have my doubts that this work will actually be done as the property was sold , the new owners have moved in and the curtains in question are still there hanging in the window.
I don't believe it is fair to pay someone for work that looks as though it is not going to be carried out .I am perfectly happy to pay for the alteration to be done but not if they have no intention of carrying it out.

According to the letting agents

Quote:

"it does not matter if they do not actually carry out the work but that they are compensated for the shrinkage and that I am lucky they didn't ask to replace the curtains as they were apparently expensive .I should be careful in querying everything as the landords have already waived /overlooked some cleaning & gardening charges and If you keep quibling and asking for receipts they will most probably demand all charges to be paid. "

Am I right to feel slightly cross that this work will not be done or am I being unreasonable in requesting evidence that this work has/will be done.

Surely If I am quoted £x for the repairs then the actual work has to be done and I am within my rights to have a copy of the receipt, also should I not be given the opportunity to have a quote for repairs done myself?

thanks in advance for any advice

annie s

Planner · 5th October 2007, 14:20

Im intrigued, how did you manage to shrink the curtains?! and by how much!!

I dont understad what the quotes for.... how do you un-shrink something?

You will be entitled to see copies of the quote and if it seems particularly steep, why not get a couple of your own and see if they are substantially cheaper?

MrShed · 5th October 2007, 15:44

Unless they have a clause in the tenancy allowing for compensationary deductions from the deposit, they cannot do this - they must actually perform the work.

Steve__M · 5th October 2007, 17:37

So, when my tenants put an iron mark in my nearly new carpet, I could have considered trying to charge them to replace the carpet, but not a dilapidations deduction? (Actually I didn't bother charging at all, but I'm curious)

MrShed · 5th October 2007, 17:50

Correct, unless you have a clause in which explicitly states that the deposit can be used in this way. (although of course you couldnt have charged for the full amount of the carpet

)

Ed999 · 6th October 2007, 17:56

Read this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...eductions.html

It explains the position regarding damage and fair-wear-and-tear, and also explains what the landlord must prove and what evidence he would need. He will have difficulty if he lacks the necessary evidence.

I disagree with Mr Shed's latest posting above. If the carpet was worn at the start of the tenancy, the landlord cannot bill the tenant for the amount that would pay for a brand new carpet.

Also, the landlord cannot bill the tenant for the replacement value of any item, even if it was brand new at the start of the tenancy, as this would be "betterment". He can only bill the tenant for a percentage of the item's value.

As to both these points see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...eductions.html

MrShed · 6th October 2007, 18:07

I never said he could Ed? Please, read the posts above to gain context before disagreeing...

Steve__M · 7th October 2007, 17:15

In answer to the original post, I've just checked my contract. There is a requirement that tenants must look after my stuff - they must not "damage...any part of the premises" and keep things in good condition. There is no explicit statement that the tenants should compensate me, but doing damage would be in breach of the contract and therefore compensation is implicit.

I think that using these clauses I would be entitled to negotiate a payment to compensate for damage that a tenant did without necessarily intending to do the work or to provide receipts (though I should provide genuine quotes, and I shouldn't charge for repairs for an item that was at the end of its life anyway).

MrShed · 7th October 2007, 17:16

It wouldnt pass Steve - it has to be explicit.

Ed999 · 8th October 2007, 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrShed

I never said he could Ed? Please, read the posts above to gain context before disagreeing...

Oops! Sorry if I misunderstood.

Ed999 · 8th October 2007, 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve__M

In answer to the original post, I've just checked my contract. There is a requirement that tenants must look after my stuff - they must not "damage...any part of the premises" and keep things in good condition. There is no explicit statement that the tenants should compensate me, but doing damage would be in breach of the contract and therefore compensation is implicit.

I think that using these clauses I would be entitled to negotiate a payment to compensate for damage that a tenant did without necessarily intending to do the work or to provide receipts (though I should provide genuine quotes, and I shouldn't charge for repairs for an item that was at the end of its life anyway).

There is a distinction between damage to the fabric of the building (usually described as "the premises") and damage to the landlord's contents: i.e. furniture and effects (e.g. a carpet).

If you intend the clause to relate to both then you should ensure that the tenancy agreement makes that clear in future lettings.

You don't need to specify that the tenant must compensate you. If he breaks a provision in the contract then the law already says he must pay you damages (financial compensation).

It would not be lawful for you to charge the tenant for repairs that you have not carried out and have no intention of carrying out.

MrShed · 8th October 2007, 08:33

Hmmm....again I'm going to go in head to head with you Ed!

The landlord cannot charge a tenant without having incurred a financial loss. If the work is not actually carried out, there is no financial loss and therefore no charges can be made from the deposit. The exception is in the case of a compensation clause being EXPLICITLY declared in the tenancy agreement.

You obviously disagree, but having seen both sides of this type of cases in court several times, and also on having spoken to one of the legal advisors to the NAEA, this is a firmly held belief.

annie s · 8th October 2007, 14:28

sorry have not joined in the debate , with 3 kids it's hard to get time on the old PC at the weekend sometimes! anyway .....thanks for all of you comments.

As to how I shrunk the curtains , I washed them before we moved out as we have a cat and I wanted to make sure they were clean so that we would not incur any cleaning charges. ( hmm lesson to be learnt there)

The curtain fabric shrunk by about 5cm at the hem (the lining did not!) All that is needed is the lining taking up and they will still be useable.( They did not fit the windows properly to start with , too long for one window and slightly too short for the other. )
If they are going to have them repaired then I should just be expected to pay to have this done, not altered to fit completely different windows in their own private house? that would have to be betterment wouldn't it?

I will read my tenancy agreement regarding compensation etc and get my own quotes done.

Following my conversation with the agents last week the curtains in question have now been taken down ? ....

will keep you posted

thanks again

Planner · 8th October 2007, 14:43

The reason I asked is..... are there washing instructions on them and did you follow them accordingly?

If you did i.e. curtains say wash in 40oc and dont tumble dry... and thats what you did.... then I would be arguing you dont owe a penny.

Ed999 · 8th October 2007, 23:40

If I understand you correctly, the shrinkage is less than two inches, on a 90 inch drop? That is probably fair wear and tear. Certainly arguable on that basis; and the tenant, of course, is only liable for damage, not for fair wear and tear.

I agree with Planner that if you can prove you followed the washing instructions on them then you should also be okay. That's if they had any washing instructions on them! And if you can prove that you complied with those instructions!

Ed999 · 8th October 2007, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrShed

Hmmm....again I'm going to go in head to head with you Ed!

The landlord cannot charge a tenant without having incurred a financial loss. If the work is not actually carried out, there is no financial loss and therefore no charges can be made from the deposit. The exception is in the case of a compensation clause being EXPLICITLY declared in the tenancy agreement.

You obviously disagree, but having seen both sides of this type of cases in court several times, and also on having spoken to one of the legal advisors to the NAEA, this is a firmly held belief.

We're not necessarily going to disagree.

What sort of express clause did you have in mind? I've seen various wordings, but not necessarily all possible wordings!

I'm just not quite clear what you mean by "a compensation clause". Care to quote from one?

MrShed · 8th October 2007, 23:53

Oooo on the spot!

Basically I'm saying that wording such as "the deposit will be used for damages/dilapidations" is not sufficient. As to what is sufficient, I am not sure - although I have been informed that the word compensation/compensationary should be in there. My suggestion would be something like(but not neccessarily

): "Deposit shall be used for damages to the property, which may include compensation payments for future repairs or replacements not performed immediately after the tenant vacates the property."

Bit shocking that wording tho

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