Cautioned for not having Train ticket

[bailey54]

My daughter - only been in London a couple of months - had her wallet stolen with her young persons railcard in it together with I D documents, anyway having got a crime number she was told by the ticket office she could still buy a young persons ticket while she waited for a replacement railcard and to quote the crime number to the guard/inspector if asked.
Yesterday travelling on the train from High Wycombe to Marylebone she was asked for her ticket and duly showed her purchased young persons ticket and expalined about her railcard. She was told as she did not have the railcard she would have to pay a penalty fee of £20. She did not have £20 on her and the bank card she was carrying had funds of only £16. The inspector took the details of her bank card. She asked him if she could phone me to place some money into that account and she would pay. He told her it could be paid when she reached the station. She assumed that he waould take the payment via her card details.
Having reached the station she approached the barrier and to her shock was manhandled by the inspector who then accused her attempting to leave the station without paying. He read her rights to her cautioned her and although she pleaded with him to allow her to make the call to me so she could pay the penalty would not allow her. She was frightened and upset. Does anyone know if she is taken to court and found guilty is it a criminal offence? I think however she has sufficient grounds to appeal. Help anyone??

[Esio Trot]

Originally Posted by bailey54

She was frightened and upset. Does anyone know if she is taken to court and found guilty is it a criminal offence? I think however she has sufficient grounds to appeal. Help anyone??

If found guilty it is a criminal offence.

However, if you read this thread, and particularly my earlier posts you will see that travelling without a ticket is not an offence of itself. The prosecution have to prove without a reasonable doubt that the defendant intended not to pay for their journey.

In the conditions of carriage it does say that a discounted ticket is only valid when accompanied by the appropriate railcard. A penalty fare can be levied, and the recipient has the opportunity to appeal. There is also (unless the rules have changed recently) no requirement to make payment at the time.

Originally Posted by bailey54

Having reached the station she approached the barrier and to her shock was manhandled by the inspector who then accused her attempting to leave the station without paying.

This is odd. If a PF had been issued, then that is the end of the matter as far as the inspector is concerned unless grounds have arisen for believing that false details had been given.

Presumably you have a copy of the PF notice, if one was issued. This you can use to make an enquiry. First you need to get your daughter to write and ask whether she was under arrest when she was cautioned, and on what grounds was she cautioned. If they reply that she was under arrest, ask on what grounds; if not, why was she manhandled.

The Police and Criminal Evidence Act is a powerful piece of legislation - and this is used where cautions are given. If you want a fascinating read, look up the act HERE.

If you need more specific advice from a legal perspective then you will need to post again with more factual information i.e. dates and times giving a chronology of events, preferably paragraphed or bullet pointed.

Reading what you have first posted at face value I don't think your daughter has much to worry about.

[bailey54]

When approached on the train the inspector asked for her I.D. which, as previously expalined, had been stolen along with her wallet and railcard some 2 weeks earlier. All she had was a bank card with her name on it and nothing to support. She was not asked at this stage for her name and address. The inspector simply took the details from her bank card at this time.

No PF notice was given to her, the inspector told her that as she had approached the barrier it was assumed she was leaving the station to avoid paying the fine and because of that he would not now issue the PF notice.
My daughter, although intelligent, is not very street wise having spent her life until now in sleepy Devon! Up until this point, and being unaware of the system, she had assumed that as he had her bank details that they would be used to collect the fine. At no time did she intentionally attempt to avoid paying the fine and in fact made efforts to do so.
She is still unclear if she was actually arrested, she felt so intimidated that all understanding went out the window!

As we have no paperwork/reference numbers etc. who do we write to and where? and how do we reference the incident?

[bailey54]

Just to underline - she had actually paid for a ticket which she had in her possession but did not have the railcard to support it!

[Esio Trot]

Originally Posted by bailey54

No PF notice was given to her, the inspector told her that as she had approached the barrier it was assumed she was leaving the station to avoid paying the fine and because of that he would not now issue the PF notice.

Barriers are normally at the head of the platform. Usually the ticket office is beyond this - thus either your daughter misunderstood what was said, or the inspector was making a false premiss. It's the same with shoplifting - you normally have to be leaving the store before theft can be proved. Same with a station. Normally the ticket office is near the entrance to the station - not by the barrier.

If she was Cautioned, then you will have to read my earlier post and get your daughter to answer the questions about timing, reading back, signing of notes etc. Ideally she needs to write down the questions she can remember and her answers. Look to see if "intent" do not pay has been proved - if not, no case.

[bailey54]

Thanks for your help Esio, she is going to write everything she can remember down today and send it off, I'll let you know how she gets on.

[reduk054]

HI Bailey, sorry to hear about the dreadful way that your daughter was treated. I hope that she is ok after her ordeal.
I am pleased that Esio has been of help, I found Esio's help invaluable, answering all the questions which I wanted answered, and the biggest thing that I learned in my case was the matter of "intent" when attempting to / purchasing a ticket. In your daughter's case it is clear that she was acting on advice and had every intention of paying.
If I were you I would be considering a severe complaint letter, as your daughter was treated without respect. From experience the train company involved will probably issue a letter "offering" a low payment of the fine plus an administration cost. But I would complain first.
I hope that it works out for you, and interested in what happens in your case. Best of luck
Red

[Yasmin]

Hi,
I have received a letter from "First Capital Connect" concerning my 16 year old son. Apparently he boarded a train without a ticket. The letter is addressed to me, as the parent/or guardian. It states that normally they would prosecute, however, in this instance they are prepared to accept a 35.00, the outstanding fare plus a huge admin fee. They have also mentioned that failure to pay this may well affect my credit rating.

Do I have no option but to pay it?? Seems a bit excessive to me, and also was not too pleased at the threatening"credit rating bit". My son is 16 and I can't be watching over him 24/7..........

[buzby]

Taking this in reverse order - I'd be interested in how they could affect your credit rating, as (1) you never transgressed, it was a family member and (2) You've not given permission for your details to be passed to a CRA, so they'd be in breach of the Data Protection Act.

As to the penalty - why not just pay it, and take it out of his allowance or get him to pay it under your supervision. He might then appreciate that travel has to be paid for, and is mighty expensive if you break the rules.

[Yasmin]

yes, I think I will take your advice and just pay it or he will from his own money... He was in the wrong, no doubt. I just didn't like the tone of the letter and the admin. fee seems excessive. However, more important issues at the moment, LOL.

[Esio Trot]

Originally Posted by Yasmin

Hi,
I have received a letter from "First Capital Connect" concerning my 16 year old son. Apparently he boarded a train without a ticket. The letter is addressed to me, as the parent/or guardian. It states that normally they would prosecute, however, in this instance they are prepared to accept a 35.00, the outstanding fare plus a huge admin fee. They have also mentioned that failure to pay this may well affect my credit rating.

Might it be possible for you to scan and paste the letter (omitting personal info, of course)?

My first thoughts are that as you are not named in person, even if it were legal, how would they be able to make a link to your credit file?

They can prosecute, but a conviction will only occur if they have proved intent. It may be that your son lost his money, or could have lost his ticket, or just had no money, but intended to pay once he got home and got a cheque from you.

I know that railways have a big problem in this country with the number of unpaid journeys that happen. Nevertheless, they still have to use the law as it stands. Immediate incarceration for travellers without a ticket would do much to eradicate ticket less travel, but that is not the law.

[captainsossige]

When stopped by penalty fare inspectors in the past, I used to simply say nothing to them and get off at the next station, as they have no powers of detention and cannot physically restrain you unless there is a police prescence..

I just walked away from them up the platform!! I did this on a number of occasions and they can't do a thing about it..

However, that was a few years ago and wouldn't even consider boarding a train without a ticket nowadays.

[Yasmin]

Hi, Thank you for your comments, I have posted letter below:-

[Esio Trot]

Hmm. As I thought. It's just a frightener letter.

I would be tempted to find out from your son what journey he undertook and the fare due, get a postal order for that amount and get him to write in saying "This is the fare for my journey on xx yy 2007 from aaaa to bbbbb."

I doubt they can even consider prosecution: your son is under the age of 18 so they cannot interview under caution without an appropriate adult present. Therefore they cannot have established intent.

They cannot prosecute you as you are not responsible.

[Yasmin]

Think I will get him to do that, seems like a good idea. He has to take resposibility! Thanks for your advice.

[ktpnut]

hi there reduk.

sorry for the reply being so late but thought i'd just put in my penny's worth! i don't work for Southern but i do work in the ticket office for a very well known train company. our customer charter states that our customers shall not wait more than 5 mins peak and 3 mins off peak in a queue to buy tickets for immediate travel, although there is nothing to tell us what we should do if customers are queuing longer than this and there are no extra staff!!! most guards are very reasonable if you approach them before you board the train and ask to buy on board. it's hugely annoying and you wouldn't believe how rude some people are but the bet thing to do is ask for a comments form, the station managers name and send a letter in about it. we told all our customers to do this and have managed to get an extra part time member of staff at busy afternoon times x

[reduk054]

Hi All,
Yasmin - your posts reagrding your son were on my mind last night. I was pondering over how the train company invovled could threaten your credit rating, when the letter is not specifically written to you?! The letter mentioned the parent/guardian didnt it? So if you follow the advice from EsioTrot, you could send a letter paying the fare only and not sign in your name just as "the parent/guardian". I feel that a £35.00 admin fee is extortionate, similar to bank charges in fact! Also, was it definitely your son i.e. did he admit it? or did someone else use his name/address to avoid their own fine?
Hi KTPnut, thank you I appreciate the mail which you have sent. Interesting time scales, very quick turn around if its only 5 mins!! Our station now is fully staffed at all times (even weekends) so I am now always happy with the service! I did write a letter, and I am sure others did too!
The guard issue was one that to this day I still can't quite fathom. I honestly thought that the ticket inspector who approached me would have been able to issue me with a ticket for my journey, but he steadfastly refused, and would only issue a penalty notice. he said that he would be able to accept an on the spot £20 fine however he couldnt accept money for a valid ticket (cost - nearly £20). Any how, I am still waiting for them to send me the proof that I did not intend to purchase a ticket, as my statement clearly said that i did make several attempts to purchase one, but could not due to a) massive queue which would mean i do not catch train and b) through 2 x ticket machines which could only accept the correct money or any other card other than electron.