Cautioned for not having Train ticket

[reduk054]

At least I didn't get ejected from the train Stone Laughter LOL

[Gertie100]

Thank you borisbeaver

[reduk054]

I sent my letter explaining how I was trying to buy a ticket, but still have not had anything regarding the penalty notice / caution?!

[reduk054]

HI little update on this one.
Letter received yesterday (26th April) from FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT with the following

Dear Red
I have been informed that on 9th March 2007 you travelled from Three Bridges to Brighton without a valid ticket for your journey.
Normally this would be dealt with by our Prosecutions Unit, but in this instance I am prepared to finalise this matter on payment of the sum of £27.90, being the outstanding fare, plus an administrative fee. Please foward payment to this office within 14 days of the date of this letter.
Failure to pay this sum will result in legal action being reconsidered. If we take out a a private prosecution against you then you could receive a criminal record and have to pay sustantial fines and costs.

Firstly I was on a Southern Train , and i was travelling between Three Bridges and Hove (actually). The ticket inspector had a southern badge.

I sent a letter on the 22 March to the Independant Penalty Fares Appeal Service, who requested the original penalty fare notice. I was only ever given a slip of paper, and not sure if this is the penalty notice or not?

I know that we are talking about a small amount, but I am uncertain about why I have been contacted by a different train company?
Any ideas?
Thank you

[calvi36]

Hi Red,

I read this whole post with interest as I drove trains for a long number of years, British rail and then the privatised railway system. I have to say, for what it is worth, that RPI's (Revenue Protection Inspectors) were hated just as much by staff as they were by the public and most only get into this type of job by being jobworths. I could tell you tale upon tale of how they did staff members travelling without tickets and it was so so bad during privatisation that company's had to issue their own staff with normal passenger tickets so that their staff could travel to certain stations and depots to pick up their next train to work it forward. I am afraid that a lot of the conditions of carriage rules from British Rail days do still apply. It is quite simple, you need a valid ticket to travel, if you can purchase a ticket at your starting station either by machine or from staff then you should do this. The only acceptable reason for boarding a train without a valid ticket is that the station is unmanned, ticket staff not available due to performing other duties or at an unmanned station ticket issuing machines are out of service. I do understand that you are an honest one but on more than one occasion I had to intervene (as a driver) to help a guard who was getting ripped into by fair dodgers. The RPI's are the scum of the railway companies yet the companies do have the right to protect their income for the service that they provide.

Originally Posted by reduk054

HI little update on this one.
Letter received yesterday (26th April) from FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT with the following

Dear Red
I have been informed that on 9th March 2007 you travelled from Three Bridges to Brighton without a valid ticket for your journey.
Normally this would be dealt with by our Prosecutions Unit, but in this instance I am prepared to finalise this matter on payment of the sum of £27.90, being the outstanding fare, plus an administrative fee. Please foward payment to this office within 14 days of the date of this letter.
Failure to pay this sum will result in legal action being reconsidered. If we take out a a private prosecution against you then you could receive a criminal record and have to pay sustantial fines and costs.

Firstly I was on a Southern Train , and i was travelling between Three Bridges and Hove (actually). The ticket inspector had a southern badge.

I sent a letter on the 22 March to the Independant Penalty Fares Appeal Service, who requested the original penalty fare notice. I was only ever given a slip of paper, and not sure if this is the penalty notice or not?

I know that we are talking about a small amount, but I am uncertain about why I have been contacted by a different train company?
Any ideas?
Thank you

[reduk054]

Hey Calvi, thank you for your post.
It is always interesting to hear from someone with first hand dealings with the train companies. And I can appreciate that from your view, as a driver that there must have been a lot of incidents that were at the very least unpleasant.
I am so cross today, I travelled by train yesterday (bought my tickets in advance so no problems!) and witnessed a person who when approached by the train guard for a ticket, admitted to not having one and then when the guard asked this person where they got on, the person said the next station on (we had not even stopped at it!), and the guard did not even bat an eyelid just charged a tiny fare (not a penalty!), and the guard had been in the carriage with this person all the while.

Any way, I guess I will have to pay the penalty fare and the admin costs, even though I did try and purchase a ticket prior to travel.
Oh and also, I provided ID to the ticket inspector and I have received this fine, however my travelling partner did not have any ID and has not received a fine. So where does honesty pay?

[reduk054]

I sent First capital connect a letter denying that i was on their train, (i was not, I was on another train) and that I was not travelling between the stations that they suggested, and have asked them to prove that I was. No reply yet.
I am still the only one who has had a penalty letter though.

[calvi36]

Hi again Red, Guards or Conductors are very different to RPI's. They have a lot of duties to perform apart from collecting fares, although they are targetted on revenue. The guard is in charge of the train, whereas the driver is in charge of the safe working of the train, two completely different roles. The guard is responsible for opening and closing of the doors, power operated doors only. Making announcements, next station is hell run when u get off.
I would view your comments on issuing a ticket to a customer from the next station as nothing more than the guard thinking, is this worth the hassle. Most people just see a uniform but believe me it is a highly stressful job. I quit after 9 years and two divorces. It has a very high divorce rate does the railway industry. Imagine getting out of bed at 1am to start work at 3 minutes past 2am, you will soon see why. I wish you luck in getting this resolved.

Originally Posted by reduk054

Hey Calvi, thank you for your post.
It is always interesting to hear from someone with first hand dealings with the train companies. And I can appreciate that from your view, as a driver that there must have been a lot of incidents that were at the very least unpleasant.
I am so cross today, I travelled by train yesterday (bought my tickets in advance so no problems!) and witnessed a person who when approached by the train guard for a ticket, admitted to not having one and then when the guard asked this person where they got on, the person said the next station on (we had not even stopped at it!), and the guard did not even bat an eyelid just charged a tiny fare (not a penalty!), and the guard had been in the carriage with this person all the while.

Any way, I guess I will have to pay the penalty fare and the admin costs, even though I did try and purchase a ticket prior to travel.
Oh and also, I provided ID to the ticket inspector and I have received this fine, however my travelling partner did not have any ID and has not received a fine. So where does honesty pay?

[reduk054]

Calvi, thank you again for your post. I am sad for you that the job was stressful and affected your personal life in such a way. Its interesting seeing things from the other side.
ps, I have never had a problem with the guards, I think that the job that they do is very hard!

[calvi36]

Originally Posted by reduk054

Calvi, thank you again for your post. I am sad for you that the job was stressful and affected your personal life in such a way. Its interesting seeing things from the other side.
ps, I have never had a problem with the guards, I think that the job that they do is very hard!

och am not sad at all they were witches lol. guards are normally good blokes and girls, they have to deal with more crap than you can imagine. Wee story for you. lancaster station, saturday afternoon. football supporters on train I was driving, a short run only 12 minutes from morecambe to Lancaster. Crowd starts getting off the train and i hear a scream behind my cab, I look out window to see a wee girl trapped in the power operated doors. I jump and prise the doors apart by hand. get onto platform. look down the length of the train and see the guard with blood over his face. I shout at him WHO? He points at some div with a union jack over his back. I go after him, tap on his shoulder and said wtf you playing at, when he tries to punch me, one headbutt and a few good kicks later am dragging him into see Charlie, the transport copper at lancaster. Guy was nicked. Turned out he had punched the guard, then pressed door close button on the guards panel as the wee girl was getting off the train.

It's more stressful than a lot of ppl realise.

[Todge]

red

Surely the ultimate Revenue Protection is fully staffing stations and maintaining the ticket machines? How about ticket machines on trains? Doesn't take a great deal of thought or investment does it?

Thought and investment - such rare commodities ...

T.

[calvi36]

Hasn't anyone finally realised the world is about revenue versus cost to collect that revenue. Costs lots to staff a station, to fit ticket machines etc. I am in no way coming down on the side of Train Operating Companies. The issue here is to compare the cost of manning every station in the UK against manning a few and having conductors collect fares alongside RPI's. The equation is simple, it is more cost effective to do the latter. Safety is the major issue for the public here, even with a well lit unmanned station late at night, who you going to call if you find yourself in trouble, not the guy in the booking office, THERE ISN'T ONE!

[Esio Trot]

Originally Posted by calvi36

I have to say, for what it is worth, that RPI's (Revenue Protection Inspectors) were hated just as much by staff as they were by the public and most only get into this type of job by being jobworths.

I must say that your comment is rather harsh.

For some years I was an RPI and it was a thankless task - for the last two years I applied for many dozens of internal transfers: ticket office, station assistants, all sorts. I came to the conclusion that there was an unwritten rule that RPI's could never transfer to any other position.

I resigned after being pushed down the stairs at Alexandra Palace station by a scroat who had no intention of being questioned on why he had no ticket and no intention to buy one. I thought my life and health were more important.

Anyway, to the OP of this thread:

At least 15 years ago, when it was still British Rail, any prosecutions were considered by a unit based in the offices of Cannon Street station. The type of letter you seem to have received was only sent out when the case notes showed "a good prospect of a conviction". However, the admin fee was at least 10 times the fare and not less than £100. It usually was paid by the recipient as the lesser evil than a conviction.

In your case however, it seems that only the fare plus a modest admin fee has been asked for. I suspect that this is because they don't have a case.

The key element which must be proved beyond reasonable doubt in any case of fare evasion is intent. As an example, one of my regular duties was to wait in plain clothes at the exit of a station where the ticket office was open. I would just approach people leaving the station and ask them for their ticket. If they had not bought one, and had walked past the ticket office I had an indefensible case of fare evasion.

He accused me of being a fare dodger (in polite terms) cautioned me (just like a police man) and I am now waiting to hear regarding the prosecution.

Anybody can issue a Caution, in the same way as a citizen anyone can arrest somebody in appropriate circumstances. It is rare for anyone to be cautioned unless the person giving it has had a significant amount of training. The reason for this is the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) as this has very strict rules on procedure. So how was the interview conducted? Were notes taken? Were they read back to you? Did you have an opportunity to sign the notes?

Thus the main question you have is whether the inspector established intent. From what you have written I doubt that intent has been established.

To have been given a Penalty Fare (in the same way as parking tickets) rules have to be followed. One of these is the test of reasonableness. My understanding is that waiting for up to 5 minutes to obtain a ticket is reasonable, more than this is not. It is reasonable to expect ticket machines to be working, they were not. Therefore if you were given a penalty fare, there would be good grounds for getting it rescinded.

I don't think you were given a penalty fare as they seem to be using the railway by-laws. To be sure, you could scan the letter (omitting identifying details, of course).

Based on what you have written, I would be tempted to send the fare only, and if you are confident that you did not admit intent, tell them that you will take your chances in a court of law!

[calvi36]

harsh but true. Sorry to hear about the stairs incident.

[Esio Trot]

Originally Posted by calvi36

most only get into this type of job by being jobworths.

Originally Posted by calvi36

harsh but true.

The "jobsworth" bit is definitely not true.

When I got the job it was from unemployment - the job was only advertised through the JobCentre - and I was one of twelve all lifted from the dole.

The money was much better than the dole, but until I was doing the job didn't realise the significance of recruiting from the unemployed. It is the sort of job only the desperate would apply for.

I certainly was not a jobsworth.