Court summons - a few questions

[warren218]

Just received a court summons regarding an unpaid train fare. On the day in question I boarded a FCC (there's another acronym that could spell out) train and got stopped almost immediately by an inspector who I swear was hiding in the between section or something. I had only a small amount of cash on me and he said that he could only charge a single fare into London. I explained that I would be stuck there in that case. So he wrote out a quick note and said they'd be in touch. So when the letter came I wrote back what had happened, explaining that I tried to use the machine, didn't accept my card (Solo which I realise they don't take) and being that I was so late, which I was by about 2 hours, I had to board that train with the intent of sorting it. Which I would have done at the next open station with the money I had, would have been enough for a 2-6 travelcard (not that I have mentioned that in the letter response I gave them). The letter I wrote back explained that I had been using a similar route for the past 4-5 months 3 times a week and knew that there was no way, given my entire journey that I could have had the intent of going to an open station because I was well aware my change & final destination were both ticketed.

My question is, if the above all makes sense, can I claim that I DID have means to pay and claim ignorance over the fact that they didn't accept my debit card? Also, they have mis-spelled my first name and written 'Warner'? - is there any technicality that I could use against them in that respect. I wanted to find out myself before committing myself to getting in touch with them. Also why is this being dealt with in court rather than simple £20 fare - is this because it's classed as 'deliberate avoidance' rather than over-travelling or something?

Thanks in advance for any help

[Dougy79]

Under what act law/bye law are you being prosecuted against?

That makes a big difference as to mitigating circumstances.

I havew done a hell of a lot of reading on this subject after I was nearly prosecuted by a railway company (see my thread) so I may be able to pass on some of the things I learnt, although my advice is by no means qualified.

[warren218]

Thanks

It's been adjourned so had more time - it's under Byelaws 18 (1) and 24 made under Section 46 of and Schedule 9 to the Railways Act 2005

Appreciate any help

[stevie1958]

Originally Posted by warren218

Thanks

It's been adjourned so had more time - it's under Byelaws 18 (1) and 24 made under Section 46 of and Schedule 9 to the Railways Act 2005

Appreciate any help

you had the means to pay and you offerd full payment that was not accepted,you should have been given a unpaid fare notice,ie 7 days to pay.

[warren218]

Thanks for your message.

Good news, went to court, prosecutor from company there dismissed case if I paid £20 + fare! Rather that then £100 costs and record.

On that day around 80% of the people never showed up, who will be found guilty. I'd recommend that you correspond with the train company (and potentially with the magistrate before the case). I won't name the network but the prosecutor was very reasonable to deal with. I think they just want to make a point.

	What are your rights at work Follow this link to read the review of the Guide to your Rights at work, published by Lawpack

[stevie1958]

Originally Posted by warren218

Thanks for your message.

Good news, went to court, prosecutor from company there dismissed case if I paid £20 + fare! Rather that then £100 costs and record.

On that day around 80% of the people never showed up, who will be found guilty. I'd recommend that you correspond with the train company (and potentially with the magistrate before the case). I won't name the network but the prosecutor was very reasonable to deal with. I think they just want to make a point.

Good i am pleased,most of the time with ticket issues if contact the company they will help you,but of course it shouldnt have gone that far,stevie.

	What are your rights at work Follow this link to read the review of the Guide to your Rights at work, published by Lawpack

[jimbo1]

Hi all,

I just wondered if you could give me a bit of advice, basically i got on a east midlands train in december. I bought a ticket using cash before boarding but when i got asked to produce it i couldnt find it.

I offered to pay but my card got declined - i only got paid the day before and it worked immediately in a cash point after but on the train it straight declined - no waiting to just a decline immediately after putting my pin in.

I only have around £8 on me and the ticket was £16 so couldnt pay any other way, the inspector then decided to take my details and accused me of travelling without the intention to pay. I explained that i get the trains regularly and that i had a ticket etc but she was not interested, she didnt offer a penaly fare. Whilst taking my details the 'train manager' decided to have a go, she said that she asked me for my ticket but i "looked the other way". This is NOT true, she didnt ask me for a ticket and i know that as i was in the toilet from the journey begining to the point i realised i didnt have a ticket.

I have received a court summons saying that i will have to pay them their costs etc etc.

Just a few q's id most appreciate if anyone can help me with,

1. Can they do this? Do they not have to issue a penalty fare BEFORE taking down the court route? It seems a total waste of money over a £16 ticket.

2. If i just plead guilty and pay the reduced costs, will I get a criminal record?

3. Is there anyway I can fight this and realistically win?

I genuinely had a ticket but as i paid in cash i cannot use my bank statement to prove it. It just all seems totally unnecessary. i have been buying train tickets regularly for 3 years and the time i lose it i get taken to court!!! Ridiculous.


Anyway,

Any help would be great,

thanks very much

[jimbo1]

i have just checked on the statement given by the inspector and it says

"the train manager XXXXX then informed me that she had not seen mr XXX ticket, but she had asked him for a ticket and he then stated that it had already been checked"

then further on it says

"when the train manager came through the train asking for tickets why did you ignore her"

so they are contradicting themselves, can i use this to get it ruled in my favour?

Its so annoying and draconian, she never even spoke to me as i was in the toilet.

[Old-CodJA]

It is impossible to generalise in these cases.

In my experience, each case is different, but the few points that are common to the process are as follows:

1. Penalty Fares do not apply on all rail services
2. Where a Penalty Fare scheme is in operation, rail staff do NOT have to offer the penalty fare option if there is evidence to suggest that making out a prosecution report is warranted.
3. Not all rail company staff are authorised to issue penalty fare notices, but will be able to report a traveller who does not have a ticket
4. The obligation is always with the traveller to produce a valid rail ticket on demand when there were facilities to buy one at the station at which the traveller boarded the train
5. A traveller without a ticket does not have to be charged with intending to avoid a fare. There is a strict liability requirement to show a valid ticket under Railways Byelaws.

If you were in a toilet throughout a journey and when asked to show a ticket could not do so, it is very likely that you will be reported.

No-one will be able to give you definitive advice on this case without being in possession of all the facts and evidence and although it may seem a little harsh, that means hearing both sides of the allegation.

It would not be advisable to go into too much detail here on an open forum, but stick to basic facts.

If you disagree with the Train Manager's statement for the reason you suggest, the correct course of action is to send the Court and / or the Rail Company notice of your intention to plead 'not guilty'.

The matter will then be adjourned for trial when you will have to attend, but the Train Manager will also be called to give evidence on oath. You will then be able to challenge the evidence given against you in Court.

Yes, if you are convicted by a Court there will be a record of that conviction.

if you plead guilty, you may be fined by the Magistrates and may be ordered to pay the prosecution costs (or part of it) and the fare due, plus the 'victim surcharge' applied to all such cases. The fine will be less if you plead guilty than if you plead not guilty and are then convicted at a later date, but you should not plead guilty jut for expediency's sake.

If you genuinely bought a ticket and lost it as you say, you should enter a not guilty plea to the Summons and defend the allegation at the Magistrates Court hearing.

This may not be relevant to this case, but it is also worth remembering that if any traveller boards a train at a station where he could not buy a ticket, it is up to the traveller to declare that fact and pay the fare at the first opportunity to do so.

I know that it is not always practical to do so, but that means the traveller must approach on train staff to pay and not wait to be challenged to do so.

The appeal court case of Corbyn (1977) is a good reference.