By law 18 (2) railways-help

[Dougy79]

Hi,

This incident happenned to me about 10 weeks ago on C2C railways. I didn't get much sleep the night before because my nan collapsed and was taken to hospital, so I was very late for a meeting. I put my ticket in the machine and it didn't work, I did this 3 times and nothing,so I just flahsed it at the guard as he was letting some people through and waited for my train. I then looked at my ticket and realised that it was actually one day out of date. At the other end (Fenchurch street) they have ticket machines and there is no way through without a valid ticket, but I didn't have time to go back because i'd be late for work, and I thought I'd just pay at the other end as people do do this.

Then after one stop a revenues inspector came on and I thought oh dear. He asked me if I had a valid ticket I said sorry I do not have a valid ticket. He said why? I said I was late for work and didn't have time to get one ( I should have said about the invalid ticket but I panicked and thougfht If I said this then he may have thought this was worse than just being late) He then cautioned me-although it wasn't the full caution set out by PACE (Just part). I was really panicking now, then he started asking me questions, have I got an oyster card I said no, where do I work, how tall I was, did I have the money to pay (which I did I had £40) address, name DOB . Then he left me and continued down the train. There was another person without a ticket who proved problematic and he had to call the police.

when the train stopped, they got off and the police met them, I stood with them waiting for him to tell me what would happen to me next, penalty fare etc but nothing. I stood there for a while whilst they were talking, then in the end thought I'd just go as I was late by now.

It just so happenned that day that the gates were open at fenchurch street (never happens in all my time) and there was no one manning them. So I walked through, then bought a ticket for the remainder of my journey.

Then a couple of months later I get a court summons saying that i'm being prosecuted under railway bylaw 18 (2). And they provided me with the officier's statement. Which I have to say was massaged slightly. I.E he did not mention at all that I had the means to pay or that he asked me that, I showed him £40 and my bank card as proof of ID, he also said that he charged me at the time, which he did not at all.

So now I don't know what to do. Should I write to C2C and try and get an out of court settlement? Or should I just comply with what they ask by post? Or defend myself in court?

It should be noted that in all c2c trains and stations, websites and pamphlets it says if you are caught without a ticket, you will be issued with a £20 fine, it does not say anywhere that you can be prosecuted. I see inspectors perhaps 3x/week on the trains and they always ask for the penalty fare and I've never seen anyone prosecuted before.

I have also been using these trains since I was 12 and I'm now 28, and I have been without a ticket on one occasion (6 months ago) after someone stole my wallet at the station.

Any help or advice would be great on what to do if you were me. From reading by law 18 (2) it seems like there is no defence, even if you did intend to pay you can still get done by this it seems? I don't condone any of it, but would this result in a criminal record? Seems all very drastic, because I could lose my job and never get to places like America over this issue.

[Dougy79]

Is it also possible to enter a no guilty plea under 18.2 bylaw? On the basis that there was no intent to not pay? It doesn't say this under the by law, but after reading some others' posts it seems as thought they have to prove mens rea in any case?

Also the inspector never got me to sign anything and didn't read out the PACE caution properly. does this help my case at all?

any help would be great as I'm quite petrified at the moment.

[Dougy79]

And does this come with a criminal record?

The notice says-If convicted the court will be asked to order you to pay costs. If you plead guilty in writing the application will be for £60. If the matter is proved the claim will be for the full cost of the process. If you disagree with the application you should explain why when you write to court.

It also says it's a sitting.

Nothing about a criminal record.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Hobbie]

Railway Bye-Laws are something else when it comes to the court, most magistrates aren't very clued up on them, and as usual rely on the clerk to point them in the right direction.

For 18(2) it is the same as Section 5.3(a), the mens rea has to be proven that you have the guilty mind to avoid payment at the time. Clearly this was not your intention as stated.

You have a right to request a copy of the RPI's pocket book, as it is evidence that the TOC will rely upon in court, also the fact that the RPI was distracted from yourself due to a fellow passenger who caused a problem thus meaning the police had to attend, it is also gravity factors for your defence. Did the RPI confuse your matter with another, in the fact he "forgot" to mention the fact you had means to pay? To me, it sounds as if the RPI hasn't followed the rules correctly for the Bye-Laws, as if the passenger is able to pay for the journey, the fare is to be collected and an PFN issued allowing the remainder of the journey.

Have you contacted the TOC about this, when is the court hearing? Have you informed the court of any decision as yet?

[Dougy79]

Thanks for the reply.

Excuse my ignorance but who are the TOC?

No I think he didn’t mention the fact that I had means to pay because it doesn’t help his case. CCTV footage before I boarded would show me trying to get through the turnstiles but not getting let through-going to the guard and showing him my ticket and him letting me through.
CCTV on the train would show me showing the revenue inspector my wallet with money in it and also my bank card which he inisisted I showed him because he wanted ID of who I was. CCTV after the incident will show the gates being open at the other end, me paying for the remainder of my journey (in retrospect I should have bought a ticket there and then for the one I was caught for too)
When he was questioning me, he didn’t seem to be taken many notes, so I suspect that he has written this retrospectively. He also states in his statement that he has known the guard at the gate in question for 15 years and there is no way he would have let me sneak past him.

Yes I don’t condone not buying a ticket, but like I said I have used these trains since I was 12, I see ticket inspectors on there at least 3 times per week, I am not a persistent offender, and I have never ever seen someone being charged, they always give a penalty notice.

The date is the 14th Nov. I haven't written anything to the court yet, because I'm not sure whether to plead not guilty, or guilty with mitigating circumstances? I was also thinking about writing to them direct. From what I can tell from the letter it's not a criminal prosecution and they are seeking to claim court costs + £8.20, + potential admin costs (all if I comply). I'm not sure where the £8.20 comes from because the fare is actually £18 and the penalty charge £20

Thanks for your comments

[Hobbie]

The TOC is the 'Train Operating Company' namely C2C Railways in this case.

You still have the right to request a copy of the Revenue Protection Inspectors notebook, as those are his 'first notes' and when he made his statement those are the notes he will have needed to refer to, otherwise the R -v- Turnbull 1977 can be brought in and used as a defence (I'm sure if you search Google or similar for the case you'll see the points).

If your sumons is to a magistrates court, then a possibility of a criminal record should you be found guilty.

Also as for Bye-Law 18(2), I'm somewhat confused as to why the sumons is for this, as it reads.

A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

You we're asked for your ticket (I assume) and you explained to the revenue staff as to your reason, I'm again asuming at no point you refused to cooperate with the staff. From what you've explained so far, it would appear the RPI is confusing the two (Yourself and the other Passenger who the police was called for), and unless the RPI can produce his notes taken at the time as to the situation and the reason, he can't prove otherwise, as in a court, the RPI can be asked the question "At what point after event/incident did you make your statement, and can I see the notes taken at the time."

Consider writing to the TOC and ask them to provide you with the evidence that will be relied up on for the hearing, and to inform them that you will be pleading not guilty and the case will be defended. That alone may cause them to withdraw or similar.

[mc661]

This is interesting.
I myself am an RPI for another TOC who shall remain anonymous.

When an RPI questions you the correct caution must be read out in it entity, that is PACE rules.
"You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say maybe given in evidence."

You are entitled to a copy of the inspectors notebook as they should have made exact notes of what you said and what he said.
Kinda like:
I said
s/he said
I said
s/he said

Some rpis have a pre printed form which they fill in and get you to sign it. an MG11.

In both cases they must get you to sign, the pre printed form and the notebook. If they do not then you can argue that they are not correct notes at the time.

There is also another uncommon rule under PACE which is ELBOWS.

No Erasures – use a single line through the middle of the word(s).
No Leaves torn out.
No Blank spaces, - if there are, rule them out to prevent additional words being entered.
No Overwriting.
No Writing in the margins (except dates and times and or initials of the author).
Mistakes and other crossings out should be initialled by the author.

If the rpi made the statement "I have known the barrier staff for 15 years" this is heresy evidence and did he say this to you under caution? If not then it cant be entered into eveidence.

I suggest you write to C2C and put "without predjuce" on the letter, and request a copy of the inspectors notebook, a copy of the CCTV so that you can consider your defence.

They also should be summonsing you for....
18 (1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

However heres an odditiy you might want to explore. Based on you being let through the gate by the person at the start of your journey.

18 (3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
...
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

[Dougy79]

Hi, thanks for your replies.

Yes I fully co-operated with the revenue staff. But as I explained earlier which again is a big mistake, when he asked how I got through the barrier, I said that I sneaked past the guard. Where as I actually showed him what was as it turns out, an invalid ticket (which I thought was valid which I tried at the barrier which is all on cctv). I’m not sure why I said that, at the time I panicked and thought that if I said that I sneaked through with an invalid ticket it may be seen as worse, so I just said I sneaked through, because I was running late (which I was)
I was not offered to sign any notebook which again I thought was odd as I personally thought this was necessary

No he has actually written on the witness statement that he has known this guy for 15 years and there is no way that anyone can just sneak past him.

I think there is justification for 18 (3) but not based on what I said at the time, but then I guess if I can call into question his notes (because they weren’t signed) it may not matter?

Thanks for the help and for chatting about it.

[Dougy79]

He also said in the letter that he charged me and asked me if I understood that charge. Which didn't happen. the process was, caution (which after reading your account was done correctly),questioning, taking details. then that was itHe moved on, then he had that problem passenger and because he was refusing to co-operate, he didn't go down the rest of the train, and stood there right beside me and him. then he met the police with this other guy and I was just left standing there not knowing what to do. So like I said in the end I wandered off, and just thought I might get issued a penalty charge or something.

[Dougy79]

I should also mention that they have not declared any cctv as evidence. I was also interested in what a previous poster said about the witness statement not being signed, because I asked on another forum and a poster said he didn't think it needed to be because then you could refuse to sign. Have you got a link to where it says that you do? That would be most helpful.

[mc661]

If a passenger refuses to sign anything, we would normally put "passenger refused to sign" and then ask them again to sign to confirm they refused to sign.

If they dont ask you to sign it makes your case slightly easier in that you can dispute the evidence as there is no proof the notes were made at the time.

[Dougy79]

Thanks.

This may seem like a stupid question, but if there is sufficient grounds to claim that the witness statement is not valid how does that affect my plea?

I.E. I have to respond to the charge of violating bye law 18 (2), which states if you do not have a valid ticket you are guilty of violating that bye law. I'm not entirely sure how if I can prove his notes aren't valid, how that affects that particular charge?

[Dougy79]

I am also now writing the letter to the TOC.

SHould I again mention the events that occurred and state my proposed defence for the hearing?

[Dougy79]

Originally Posted by mc661

If a passenger refuses to sign anything, we would normally put "passenger refused to sign" and then ask them again to sign to confirm they refused to sign.

If they dont ask you to sign it makes your case slightly easier in that you can dispute the evidence as there is no proof the notes were made at the time.

so if the witness statement is proved to not be valid because it hasn't adhered to PACE proceedure, and this is the only evidence that they base their case on, how does that leave their case?

[Dougy79]

Right so it seems that i’ve successfully bored everyone to tears with this problem and scared them away!

But there is something else which I’m not sure is useful or not?

At this station, the people at the gates often let people through without tickets at their own risk, and people at the other end often let them pay at that end. I thought i’d take a note of when this next happened, which was today at 7.53, both the ticket sales rep and the guy at the gate let a passenger through without a ticket saying it was at his own risk (he said he was running late) this will be on cctv.

Is this relevant etc to my case?

[Dougy79]

Ok I have finished my letter to the TOC any comments most welcome


Dear Sir/Madam,

I have received a court summons from you for the 14th November 2008 over an alleged incident regarding fare evasion under bye law 18 (2) of the strategic rail authority byelaws.

I feel apologetic that this incident has arisen and that you seek prosecution. I have used your railways since I was 12 years old and do not hold a record as a persistent fare evader and have never sought to fare evade on your trains.

The night before the incident, I received devastating news that my Nan had collapsed and had to be admitted to hospital (she lives by herself), so I didn’t get much sleep. I arrived at Leigh On Sea station at approximately 8.15 am late for a meeting (because of lack of sleep). I put my ticket in the barrier and it didn’t work. The train was soon to arrive so I showed my ticket to the guard at the barrier as I went to the platform and he let me through (this will be seen on CCTV).

As I was walking down the stairs I looked at my ticket as I put it in my pocket and noticed that it was actually out of date (by a day). So I threw it away with the intention of paying the guard at Fenchurch ST because I didn’t have time to go back and buy one because I was running late. Buying tickets at the other end is common place on this railway, for example today on 13th Oct at 7.53 am, a man was running late and he told the ticket master and the guard that he doesn’t have time to buy one now, let me through and I’ll pay at the other end and I’ll risk a penalty fine and they let him through (this will be on cctv). I have also seen numerous other people in similar situations.

Shortly after boarding the train I was stopped by a revenues inspector who asked if I had a valid ticket, I said regrettably that I didn’t. He then cautioned me under the PACE act and proceeded to interview me. I complied fully with his questions and told him what happened. I also showed him my bank card as identification confirmation(should be on train cctv) and he also asked me If I had appropriate funds to pay for my journey and I showed him my wallet which had £40 in it and told him that I want to pay for my journey .

He then proceeded down the train without charging me or issuing me with a penalty charge notice and inspected other’s tickets where he encountered another passenger ticket less. However, this man proved to be problematic and the RPI had to call the police to wait at the next station (Fenchurch st) to deal with this troublesome gentlemen. They both stood alongside me for the duration of the journey (approx 35mins) without saying anything to me. We then reached our destination and I stood alongside the RPI and police and I assumed that they may issue me with a penalty notice, but they just ignored me and dealt with this gentleman who was not complying. No mention of a charge or allegation was made, no penalty notice given, I was not asked to sign his witness statement which is contrary to PACE 64&65 stipulations.

2 months later I get a court summons from yourselves. I do not for one moment condone the act of fare evasion and I realise that those caught must be punished, but considering that I am not a persistent offender, that I have used your railways for 16 years and always bought a ticket, that I did not intend to not travel without a valid ticket on this date, I do implore you to consider my offer of an out of court settlement for the sum of the cost of the court cancellation fees, full administration costs due to you for this process and the fee claimed of £8.20 for the outstanding fair.

If you do still wish to go to court over this, I will defend myself and plead not guilty of the charges and would request a copy of the RPI’s notebook for this incident as is my right.

Awaiting your reply.

[mc661]

Hi

I am currently re-drafting this letter and have not ignored this thread.

[Dougy79]

Thanks a lot.

Apologies for the rapid succession of posts which is due to mild panic.

[mc661]

Hi


Here's the letter I have drafted for you, It is very important you stick the "WITHOUT PREJUDICE" in the letter after Dear Sir/Madam. This is a Legal phrase that allows parties to discuss and negotiate a settlement to a legal claim, without admitting liability. Any documents headed "without prejudice" cannot be used in evidence in any subsequent court case without the permission of both parties.


Also remember to edit the bits in RED



Dear Sir/Madam,

Without Prejudice

I have received a court summons from you for a hearing on the 14th November 2008 over an alleged incident regarding fare evasion that happened on [INSERT FULL DATE]

I am sorry that this incident has arisen and further am amazed that you seek prosecution. I have been a customer on your railway since I was 12 years old and as far as I am aware I do not hold a record as a fare evader and have never sought to fare evade on your trains.

The night before the incident, I received devastating news that my Nan had collapsed and had to be admitted to hospital (she lives by herself), so I didn’t get much sleep. I arrived at Leigh on Sea station at approximately 08:15. I was late for a meeting due to oversleeping. I put my ticket in the barrier and it didn’t work. I showed my ticket to the ticket inspector at the barrier and he let me through.

As I was walking down the stairs I looked at my ticket as I put it in my pocket and noticed that it was actually yesterday’s ticket. So I threw it away with the intention of paying the guard at Fenchurch Street, as I know that ticket inspectors sell tickets to passengers at the other end.

Shortly after boarding the train I was stopped by a revenues protection inspector who asked if I had a valid ticket, I said regrettably that I didn’t. He then cautioned and proceeded to interview me. I complied fully with his questions and told him what happened. I also showed him my bank card as identification and he also asked me if I had the means to pay for my journey. I showed him my wallet which had £40 in it and told him that I want to pay for my journey from Leigh on Sea to London.

After showing him my wallet he then proceeded down the train without charging me or issuing me with a Penalty Fare notice and inspected other’s tickets where he encountered another ticketless passenger. The Inspector had to call the police to deal with this passenger. The Inspector and the police both stood alongside me for the duration of the journey without saying anything to me. We then reached our destination and the Inspector and the police continued to ignore me and dealt with this gentleman who was not complying.
No mention of a charge or allegation was made, no Penalty Notice was given. I was not read back his notes and I was not asked to at any time to sign his notes which I am sure you are aware is contrary to PACE code C annex D.

Two months later I am surprised to have received a court summons from you. I do not for one moment condone the act of fare evasion and I realise that those caught must be punished, but considering that I have no records as an offender, that I have used your railways for 16 years and always bought a ticket, that I did not intend to not travel without a valid ticket, I do implore you to consider my offer of an out of court settlement in full and final settlement in this matter for the sum of the cost of the court cancellation fees, full administration costs due to you for this process and the fee claimed of £8.20 for the outstanding fare.

However if my offer of an out of court settlement is not accepted, I will plead Not Guilty to the charges and will defend myself to fullest extent permitted by law. I will also look forward to your Prima facie case.

I look forward to receiving your reply.


YOUR NAME

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[Dougy79]

Thanks a lot that is great. Although I will have to change just two things, because once I had my wallet stolen and had to pay a penalty fare, and the police met with us after the train stopped, they weren't onboard the train.

Many thanks for taking the time to help with this, any other comments welcome.