By law 18 (2) railways-help

[Dougy79]

As of yet I have not had a response from them yet. so do you think it's best to now just send in the defence form in? Because it's only two weeks till the hearing date now and time is ticking.

[mc661]

Send a reminder letter to them.

[Dougy79]

Thanks, should I include a photocopy of the original letter too?

[Dougy79]

And how late can I leave it to send my letter of plea about the hearing to the court? It doesn't say on the letter.

[Dougy79]

I just recieved this response, however i'm unclear as to whether the charges will definitely be dropped if I pay, and whether or not I still have to take action regarding my court summons form after I send this cheque off. Would it be also a good idea to send a photo copy of my current monhly ticket also?

"Thank you for your letter etc..

I note in your penultimate paragraph, you indicate that you would plead not guilty should we proceed to hearing at court. I wonder if you have carefully read the charge specified in the summons. The allegation is simple, that you failed to show the inspector on demand a train ticket.

You have a copy of the statement by the inspector, which sets out the prima facie case. Your letter indicates that you accept that you did not show a ticket to the inspector, and further claims that you knew that you did not have a ticket. Should this matter go to court, I commend that you prior to entering any plea, you seek qualified legal advice.

Your letter also states that as far as you are aware you do not hold a record as a ticket evader. I doubt that you have already forgotten sending us a cheque in March 2008.

This prompts awish to seek to obtain a conviction at court rather than an out of court settlement.

You implore us to consider withdrawing this case.You offer to meet our costs. Please be advised that we would consider withdrawing the case should yousend to us a cheque or PO for the sum of £83.20. This owuld cover our costs relating to the incident 07-08-08."

[mc661]

Hmm standard response which is contradictory based on last two paragraphs.

send them the cheque, thanking them for accepting your offer of final settlement.

remember to put in your letter something along the lines of "please accept this cheque of xx.xx number ##### in full and final settlement relating to the incident of ##/##/##.
Again put Without Prejudice at the top of your letter.

Originally Posted by Dougy79

I just recieved this response, however i'm unclear as to whether the charges will definitely be dropped if I pay, and whether or not I still have to take action regarding my court summons form after I send this cheque off. Would it be also a good idea to send a photo copy of my current monhly ticket also?

"Thank you for your letter etc..

I note in your penultimate paragraph, you indicate that you would plead not guilty should we proceed to hearing at court. I wonder if you have carefully read the charge specified in the summons. The allegation is simple, that you failed to show the inspector on demand a train ticket.

You have a copy of the statement by the inspector, which sets out the prima facie case. Your letter indicates that you accept that you did not show a ticket to the inspector, and further claims that you knew that you did not have a ticket. Should this matter go to court, I commend that you prior to entering any plea, you seek qualified legal advice.

Your letter also states that as far as you are aware you do not hold a record as a ticket evader. I doubt that you have already forgotten sending us a cheque in March 2008.

This prompts awish to seek to obtain a conviction at court rather than an out of court settlement.

You implore us to consider withdrawing this case.You offer to meet our costs. Please be advised that we would consider withdrawing the case should yousend to us a cheque or PO for the sum of £83.20. This owuld cover our costs relating to the incident 07-08-08."

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[Dougy79]

Just to update you all on this, in the end they agreed to settle outside of court to which I paid admin costs and they said they'd drop the case. So I didn't go to the hearing and didn't get any letter from court so I assume that the matter is finished with. Now I am super careful and double check my season ticket everytime

[stevie1958]

Originally Posted by mc661

Hi


Here's the letter I have drafted for you, It is very important you stick the "WITHOUT PREJUDICE" in the letter after Dear Sir/Madam. This is a Legal phrase that allows parties to discuss and negotiate a settlement to a legal claim, without admitting liability. Any documents headed "without prejudice" cannot be used in evidence in any subsequent court case without the permission of both parties.


Also remember to edit the bits in RED





Dear Sir/Madam,

Without Prejudice

I have received a court summons from you for a hearing on the 14th November 2008 over an alleged incident regarding fare evasion that happened on [INSERT FULL DATE]

I am sorry that this incident has arisen and further am amazed that you seek prosecution. I have been a customer on your railway since I was 12 years old and as far as I am aware I do not hold a record as a fare evader and have never sought to fare evade on your trains.

The night before the incident, I received devastating news that my Nan had collapsed and had to be admitted to hospital (she lives by herself), so I didn’t get much sleep. I arrived at Leigh on Sea station at approximately 08:15. I was late for a meeting due to oversleeping. I put my ticket in the barrier and it didn’t work. I showed my ticket to the ticket inspector at the barrier and he let me through.

As I was walking down the stairs I looked at my ticket as I put it in my pocket and noticed that it was actually yesterday’s ticket. So I threw it away with the intention of paying the guard at Fenchurch Street, as I know that ticket inspectors sell tickets to passengers at the other end.

Shortly after boarding the train I was stopped by a revenues protection inspector who asked if I had a valid ticket, I said regrettably that I didn’t. He then cautioned and proceeded to interview me. I complied fully with his questions and told him what happened. I also showed him my bank card as identification and he also asked me if I had the means to pay for my journey. I showed him my wallet which had £40 in it and told him that I want to pay for my journey from Leigh on Sea to London.

After showing him my wallet he then proceeded down the train without charging me or issuing me with a Penalty Fare notice and inspected other’s tickets where he encountered another ticketless passenger. The Inspector had to call the police to deal with this passenger. The Inspector and the police both stood alongside me for the duration of the journey without saying anything to me. We then reached our destination and the Inspector and the police continued to ignore me and dealt with this gentleman who was not complying.
No mention of a charge or allegation was made, no Penalty Notice was given. I was not read back his notes and I was not asked to at any time to sign his notes which I am sure you are aware is contrary to PACE code C annex D.

Two months later I am surprised to have received a court summons from you. I do not for one moment condone the act of fare evasion and I realise that those caught must be punished, but considering that I have no records as an offender, that I have used your railways for 16 years and always bought a ticket, that I did not intend to not travel without a valid ticket, I do implore you to consider my offer of an out of court settlement in full and final settlement in this matter for the sum of the cost of the court cancellation fees, full administration costs due to you for this process and the fee claimed of £8.20 for the outstanding fare.

However if my offer of an out of court settlement is not accepted, I will plead Not Guilty to the charges and will defend myself to fullest extent permitted by law. I will also look forward to your Prima facie case.

I look forward to receiving your reply.


YOUR NAME

hi, for a succesfull prosocution the rpi must get the 3 fails:
failure to produce a valid ticket
failure to provide name and adress
failure to offer to purchas ticket.

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[Old-CodJA]

I just feel compelled to add a little piece to this thread in order to correct a very bad piece of generalisation.

Stevie1958, I have cut and paste this from your last message just to avoid a lengthy quote message. You stated:

hi, for a succesfull prosocution the rpi must get the 3 fails:
failure to produce a valid ticket
failure to provide name and adress
failure to offer to purchas ticket.

I believe that you have stated somewhere else that you are an R.P.I and I have to take issue with these comments. I sincerely hope that you have simply misunderstood the original posting or made an error here and do not honestly believe the comment that you have made to be correct.

I am not trying to belittle anyone so please do not be offended, but it is of critical importance that all R.P.Is act correctly and do understand their powers here.

You have said that "for a succesfull prosocution the rpi must get the 3 fails"

That is blatantly NOT TRUE.

What you are getting confused with is the passenger's obligations regarding Section 5.3.c of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 which confers a power of arrest for a railway officer for a specific act by a passenger who has no ticket.

This legislation gives a power of arrest for Railway Officers (R.P.Is) under specific circumstances only. It is not necessary for police officers to have a power of arrest under this Act because they have the authority via the general arrest conditions under P.A.C.E.

If a traveller:
1. fails to show a valid ticket,
2. fails or refuses to pay the fare requested and
3. fails to give his name and address (or gives a false one)

then a railway officer may arrest that offender. The offender must fail all three points for the arrest to be made lawfully.

It is plainly not necessary for all of these failures to have been made simply to secure a conviction for either a fare evasion charge (RRA S.5.3.a or 5.3.b as appropriate) or, for the offence of being in breach of Byelaw 17 or 18.

Simply failing to show a valid ticket can lead to a conviction for a Byelaw offence.

Many people still (wongly) believe that they will always get away with it by giving false particulars, but these days that is far less likely than in the past, when checking facilities for rail staff and station surveillance were not available

The legislation is complex and lengthy, but is designed to protect both parties.

I reiterate what I have said elsewhere.

If a traveller genuinely did everything in their power to ensure that they held a valid ticket for their journey then the R.P.I. or other authorised staff should not unjustly penalise anyone.

Always contact the rail company and give a truthful account of the circumstances and in the majority of cases a mutually acceptable resolution can be achieved.