Help wanted on a train penalty fair notice please!

[Growlybear]

I wondered if anyone could give me any advice on whether there is anything I can do about a problem I have please.

I have just received a letter addressed to my 15 year old daughter, care of parent/guardian from the Independent Penalty Fares Appeal Service. It appears that my daughter was issues a penalty fare notice on 9 May on her way to school because she did not have her photocard with her to accompany her monthly train season ticket. She obviously appealed against the £20 fine she was given, but her letter was not received until 2 June. The 21 day deadline expired on Friday, 30 June, and her letter was apparently received on the next working day. Her appeal was not considered because it was received too late. The first I knew of this was when the letter in response to her appeal, dated 10 June, arrived today.

I have spoken to the IPFAS on the telephone, and we went round in circles. Whilst I fully accept that my daughter was at fault for not having her photocard in the wallet with her season ticket, and that she was at fault for not telling me that she had been issued with a penalty charge notice, I am surprised that an official organisation such as IPFAS can communicate with a child and impose fines without notifying their parents. My daughter clearly thought that she would be able to sort this out through an appeal, but, as a child in the middle of exams, she obviously missed the deadline by the narrowest of margins. Had I, as the legal guardian of the child concerned, been made aware of the situation, I could have made certain that the appeal was received by IPFAS in time, and presumably the appeal woudl have been considered. I asked both people I spoke to at IPFAS whether they had a duty to inform the parents of children who were issued with fines, and their response was that they were doing so now - AFTER the appeal deadline has expired. both people were typical jobsworths, and were totally unhelpfu.

There must be many children who would be worried about telling their parents that they had been given a fine, and surely there is some onus on the company issuing the fine to inform parents at the time of issue rather than when they no longer have the righ to appeal?

Any advice would be gratefully received!

[blahtom123]

Sounds a bit ridiculous, but if they're allowed to penalty fare a 15 year old then I suppose there's nothing you can argue really.

What I would say is that, if this did happen again in the future its probably best to pay the penalty fare first, and then appeal so you get a refund at a later date.

[Growlybear]

Thanks for your reply. My issue isn't really that they issued a penalty fare, because my daughter should have had her photocard with her. My concern is that, as her legal guardian, I have no right to appeal against the notice. apparently South Eastern Trains can waive up to two penalty notices in a year for people who have forgotten to carry their season ticket/photocard, so the appeal would probably have been successful. I don't think it is acceptable to rely on a child telling their parent that they have received a fine, and not notifying the parent. If I had known that she had received the notice, then I would have appealed. When I received the letter today, and found out about the notice for the first time, I assumed that I could appeal. But apparently I cannot do so.

[MilkTrayMan]

Originally Posted by Growlybear

...my daughter was issues a penalty fare notice on 9 May...She obviously appealed against the £20 fine she was given, but her letter was not received until 2 June. The 21 day deadline expired on Friday, 30 June, and her letter was apparently received on the next working day. Her appeal was not considered because it was received too late. The first I knew of this was when the letter in response to her appeal, dated 10 June, arrived today.

Methinks U MAY have made a typo re: Deadline Date??...

Originally Posted by Growlybear

Whilst I fully accept that my daughter was at fault for not having her photocard in the wallet with her season ticket, and that she was at fault for not telling me that she had been issued with a penalty charge notice, I am surprised that an official organisation such as IPFAS can communicate with a child and impose fines without notifying their parents. My daughter clearly thought that she would be able to sort this out through an appeal, but, as a child in the middle of exams, she obviously missed the deadline by the narrowest of margins. Had I, as the legal guardian of the child concerned, been made aware of the situation, I could have made certain that the appeal was received by IPFAS in time, and presumably the appeal woudl have been considered...

I fail to understand on what grounds U think that U MAY have been able to appeal on??...

U have admitted that your daughter had invalidated her season ticket.
Whatever other things have or have NOT transpired don't change this fact.
It is for this reason that a PCN has been issued + for this reason alone.

Even though the initial letter was addressed to your daughter, it ALSO stated "Care of Parent/Guardian".
Your daughter is 15 NOT 5

She obviously feels old enough to 'forget' to have her photo I.D. on her when travelling using her season ticket, wishes to NOT mention the letter to U, conduct her OWN appeal + then 'forget' WHEN the deadline for that said appeal is.

Perhaps it MAY help to jog her memory in the future, when she remembers how old she felt when U stopped £20 out of any pocket money that U may give to her, to pay the £20 Penalty Charge instead...

Originally Posted by Growlybear

I asked both people I spoke to at IPFAS whether they had a duty to inform the parents of children who were issued with fines, and their response was that they were doing so now - AFTER the appeal deadline has expired. both people were typical jobsworths, and were totally unhelpfu.

By saying that they were totally unhelpful...Do U mean that they didn't do what U wanted??...
...That being, to waiver the £20 PCN...

Your daughter is ultimately the one at fault, NOT the PCN system.
'Tough Love' will only benefit her in the long term.



...

[Growlybear]

Originally Posted by MilkTrayMan

Methinks U MAY have made a typo re: Deadline Date??...

Yes, you are right, I did make a typo. The deadline date should have been 30 May not 30 June.


I fail to understand on what grounds U think that U MAY have been able to appeal on??...

U have admitted that your daughter had invalidated her season ticket.
Whatever other things have or have NOT transpired don't change this fact.
It is for this reason that a PCN has been issued + for this reason alone.


I am not disputing the issue of the PCN. However, South Eastern Rail state in the section on their website relating to penalty fares that consideration will be given to waiving PCNs for season ticket holders who have left their tickets at home on two occasions per year. From my understanding of this, and having spoken to SE Rail, an appeal on these grounds would generally have been upheld.

Even though the initial letter was addressed to your daughter, it ALSO stated "Care of Parent/Guardian".
Your daughter is 15 NOT 5

She obviously feels old enough to 'forget' to have her photo I.D. on her when travelling using her season ticket, wishes to NOT mention the letter to U, conduct her OWN appeal + then 'forget' WHEN the deadline for that said appeal is.

The letter I received today, dated 10 June, was the one and only letter that was sent by the IPFAC. Whether she is 5 or 15, I am still her legal guardian, and I feel I should have been informed when she is issued with a fine. I'm not for one minute condoning her not telling me or forgetting her photocard in the first place.

Perhaps it MAY help to jog her memory in the future, when she remembers how old she felt when U stopped £20 out of any pocket money that U may give to her, to pay the £20 Penalty Charge instead...

I'm sure she won't forget her ID again, and she will most definitely be paying for the fine out of her allowance.


By saying that they were totally unhelpful...Do U mean that they didn't do what U wanted??...
...That being, to waiver the £20 PCN...

Not at all. The first person I spoke to was rude. I was not asking for them to waive the PCN. I was asking for the right to be able to make an appeal against the PCN on the grounds I have stated above, because today was the first time I had been made aware that a PCN had been issued.

Your daughter is ultimately the one at fault, NOT the PCN system.
'Tough Love' will only benefit her in the long term.



...

..

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi Growlybear!

I appreciate what U are saying re: Appeal.
However, as blahtom123 as indicated, it is better to pay the PCN asap, before things escalate thus costing U even MORE money.

Although South Eastern have indicated that U MAY be able to Claim your money back, the words "consideration will be given" lends one to believe that it is NOT an absolute right, in every case.

Personally, I would throw myself on their mercy + STILL write a letter to their Customer Services Dept.
Try NOT to be scathing + DEMAND a refund, U will only get their backs up + get nowhere.
Write a nice polite letter, where U are open + honest with them MAY work?
...U only have the cost of a stamp to lose.


P.S. ...It is quite legal for errant daughters to be sold on e-bay btw...


...

[Growlybear]

Listing her on eBay has certainly crossed my mind!

I will be writing to ask if they will consider an appeal from me after the deadline. I'm not particularly holding out much hope, but you never know. Thanks for your time in responding

[crh]

Originally Posted by MilkTrayMan

Methinks U MAY have made a typo re: Deadline Date??...




I fail to understand on what grounds U think that U MAY have been able to appeal on??...

U have admitted that your daughter had invalidated her season ticket.
Whatever other things have or have NOT transpired don't change this fact.
It is for this reason that a PCN has been issued + for this reason alone.

Even though the initial letter was addressed to your daughter, it ALSO stated "Care of Parent/Guardian".
Your daughter is 15 NOT 5

She obviously feels old enough to 'forget' to have her photo I.D. on her when travelling using her season ticket, wishes to NOT mention the letter to U, conduct her OWN appeal + then 'forget' WHEN the deadline for that said appeal is.

Perhaps it MAY help to jog her memory in the future, when she remembers how old she felt when U stopped £20 out of any pocket money that U may give to her, to pay the £20 Penalty Charge instead...




By saying that they were totally unhelpful...Do U mean that they didn't do what U wanted??...
...That being, to waiver the £20 PCN...

Your daughter is ultimately the one at fault, NOT the PCN system.
'Tough Love' will only benefit her in the long term.



...

have some heart MTM its a 15 year old kid who has forgotten her photocard.

Where's the common sense? its not like she walked on the train with the intent of ripping the rail company off. She probably didnt even realise she didnt have her photocard in the first place.

Your post is even more arrogrant and rude than mine are. Dont you realise your re-inforcing peoples views on revenue staff when you post stuff like that.

[Esio Trot]

I am a little puzzled here.

In buying a ticket, a person enters into a contract with the railway company. If this person is a minor, how can she enter into a contract? The only person who could be liable is the parent or guardian. The way I see it, it matters not a fig whether she is 5 or 15 - she is a minor and as she is not a sufficient age to enter into a contract, the penalty is invalid.

In any situation where breach of some regulation is alleged, you need to look at what the law actually says. The penalty notice will quote the legislation it was issued under. Enter this in a search engine and read what it says.

Quote it here and me or another member will have a look.

[Growlybear]

Thanks very much for your interesting point, Esio Trot. I would have assumed that any contract was between me as the purchaser of the ticket and South Eastern Railways, and that I would be responsible for any breach of the regulations as my daughter is a minor. Unfortunately, my daughter sent back the PCN without keeping a copy, so I can't check the wording. However, now that I've spoken to her in more detail about the circumstances, it seems that the information I was given over the phone about the issue of the PCN was not quite correct. My daughter realised that she didn't have her season ticket and photocard when she got to the station, and asked the ticket collector at the barrier as she entered the station what she could do because she had forgotten her season ticket and had no money on her to buy a ticket. He told her that she could travel, but that he would have to issue her with a PCN, which she should send to the address on the form, together with copy of her pass and photocard, with no need for an accompanying letter. This is what she did, albeit fairly close to the deadline for appeal. Having been reading the information on South Eastern Railways' Penalty Charge policy, it does appear to me that the ticket collector shouldn't have issued her with a PCN under the circumstances, but shoudl have told her to get a Permit to Travel, which I understand gives authority to travel, and to make payment of the appropriate fare within two hours. From what I can see, a PCN is issued where someone appears to be trying to evade the payment of a fare. In my daughter's case, she hadn't even attempted to travel, but had sought the advice of a South Eastern Railways employee before trying to even get on to the platform, let alone board a train. So I cannot see that she breached any regulation in this instance.

[MilkTrayMan]

Originally Posted by Growlybear

...It appears that my daughter was issues a penalty fare notice on 9 May on her way to school because she did not have her photocard with her to accompany her monthly train season ticket...

Originally Posted by Growlybear

...My daughter realised that she didn't have her season ticket and photocard when she got to the station, and asked the ticket collector at the barrier as she entered the station what she could do because she had forgotten her season ticket and had no money on her to buy a ticket...

Your account of the events has changed Growlybear...

Originally Posted by Growlybear

...He told her that she could travel, but that he would have to issue her with a PCN, which she should send to the address on the form, together with copy of her pass and photocard, with no need for an accompanying letter...

This is sound advice.

Originally Posted by Growlybear

...Having been reading the information on South Eastern Railways' Penalty Charge policy, it does appear to me that the ticket collector shouldn't have issued her with a PCN under the circumstances, but shoudl have told her to get a Permit to Travel, which I understand gives authority to travel, and to make payment of the appropriate fare within two hours...

Here is a link to the Network Rail Website, where a comprehensive copy of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage can be downloaded from...
National Rail Conditions of Carriage

Further to this, here is a link to the Southeastern Website...
Southeastern Railway - Penalty Fares

If U scroll down the page which MY link will direct U to, U will in fact see WHEN Permit to Travel Tickets are available + valid.
It also answers many of the other questions which U may ask.
The fact that your daught had NO money with her, would have meant that she would NOT have been able to purchase one in any case...

Originally Posted by Growlybear

...From what I can see, a PCN is issued where someone appears to be trying to evade the payment of a fare...

That is a correct assumption to make.
Your daughter had NO valid ticket + NO money to purchase one.
She entered a Penalty Fare Station's Compulsory Ticket Area...She broke the law...She received a PCN.
...Not exactly rocket science is it??...

Originally Posted by Growlybear

...In my daughter's case, she hadn't even attempted to travel, but had sought the advice of a South Eastern Railways employee before trying to even get on to the platform, let alone board a train. So I cannot see that she breached any regulation in this instance...

By viewing the following link U will see a map of ALL the Southeastern Penalty Fare Stations...
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk...ares%20Map.pdf

Please note that at Penalty Fare Stations, valid tickets are compulsory even on platforms + other areas beyond the ticket gate/booth...
...Below is a copy of the Railway Byelaw concerning this fact...

TRAVEL AND FARES

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas
(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

...

[Esio Trot]

Regardless of MTM's quoting of the regulations, I think the railway company are on very weak grounds here because they are dealing with a minor.

If the penalty is not paid, and a court claim is issued, to whom will it be addressed?

The penalty was issued to a minor in her name (which I am fairly certain makes it invalid anyway). I have seen a PFN recently and under the payment options it only makes reference to cheque, debit or credit cards. Cash was not acceptable, even if paying at a booking office. How can a minor have a cheque book, credit or debit card?

After the appeal was rejected (which the minor should not done anyway) the reply is sent to the minor c/o the parent or guardian. From what the OP has written this was the first time that recognition has been made that she is minor, hence the c/o addition.

I have read the regulations, and cannot find any reference to minors. It refers to "a person". and that without a valid ticket "the person" is liable to a penalty. IMO "a person" does not include parent or guardian.

My thoughts are to ignore this PFN. If they were to ever issue court proceedings, they can't name the minor, and so would have to name the parents or guardians. The parents or guardians are not responsible as they are not "the person" and the regulations make no mention of dealing with minors, or stating that where a minor is concerned a parent or guardian is responsible.

[Growlybear]

Many thanks for your advice. When I asked about further action that would be taken if the PCN was not paid, as well as being told that they would start court proceedings when she was 18, I was also told that if that was not paid, details of the debt would affect her credit rating in future years! however, I have written to set out why I think the PCN should be withdrawn, and will wait to see what response I get.

MTM - as I said in my last post, once I had been able to discuss what had happened with my daughter, she told me that the circumstances were different to what I had been told by IPFAS. It is not a question of me changing my account of the events - I was given a different side to the situation by my daughter.

In respect of your comment about my daughter entering a compulsory ticket area of a station without a ticket, this was not the case. She approached the ticket collector at the barrier and explained her predicament to him before attempting to access the platform. He then issued the PCN and allowed her to proceed. As far as I'm aware, the mai