Have you Been given a train fine? (reclaim the right)

[JOSH_IOU]

Please start a thread of your own if you wish to report any developments.

If you do challaenge the tickets could you include copies of the letters you have recived in your thread.

Also could you include a link to your thread in this thread.

Cheers

JOSH_IOU

amend as necessary



Dear [name],

Please find enclosed a copy of the Penalty charge Letter Notice [insert reference number] which I received on [date]. It was issued by [name of company issuing ticket] on behalf of [train company] and is attempting to impose a 'Penalty Charge' of £XX (reduced to £XX if paid within XX days).

Upon checking Statute Law, I was surprised to find that [the train company], or its agents, appear to be attempting to extort money from me in an unlawful manner. Please find enclosed an extract of the Bill of Rights Act 1689, enacted and formally entered into Statute following the Declaration of Rights 1689. I draw your attention to the section that I have highlighted:

"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void".

This states that a conviction is necessary before a fine or forfeit can be imposed. As you will be aware, the Bill of Rights is a "constitutional statue" and may not be repealed impliedly. As stated in the "hoburn v Sunderland City Council" Judgment in the Divisional Court (18th February 2002) by Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice Crane (I will paraphrase, but have included a copy of the judgment's relevant sections 62 and 63):

62."We should recognise a hierarchy of Acts of Parliament: as it were 'ordinary' statutes and 'constitutional statutes.' The special status of constitutional statutes follows the special status of constitutional rights. Examples are the ... Bill of Rights 1689 ... 63. Ordinary statutes may be impliedly repealed. Constitutional statutes may not…"

I am not aware that any Statute Laws of england makes any express reference to repealing the Bill of Rights Act 1689.

Therefore, it would appear that [train company] and its agents have no lawful authority to demand money for an alleged infringement that has not been dealt with by a Court of Law. If you wish to proceed against me, please refer the matter to a Court of Law in an orderly fashion. Otherwise, the forfeit demanded of me is illegal and void.

Please also confirm to me in writing that you have advised the relevant officers of the Company and its agents that they are acting illegally by attempting to claim powers which are forbidden to them, and that all issuing of penalties is being done only after conviction by a Court of Law.

I should warn you if you do proceed to the court the court may take this notice as harrasment. Under the administration of jsutice act this notice is not enforcable in acourt of law.


Yours sincerely, etc

ENCLOSURES
1. Photocopy of Penalty Charge Notice
2. Extract of the Bill of Rights Act 1689
3. Extract of hoburn v Sunderland City Council Judgment, sections 62 and 63.

[robert_harper_2000]

Has anyone had success with this? How about reclaiming previous [paid] fines?

[JOSH_IOU]

As far as Iknow this has only been used to claim back parking tickets under the council's unlawful parking scheme.


If you have been issued a demand and not a county court claim I do not see why this should not work for the trains as well.

	County Court guidebook by Judge Patricia Pearl Follow this link to read the review of this excellent Small Claims Guidebook. This comprehensive and very accessible guide will take you through the process of suing or defending a claim. This guide will help you take control of your litigation and make you more confident about doing it yourself. Applies to England and Wales

[robert_harper_2000]

It was a while ago now... think it was a threat with county court

	County Court guidebook by Judge Patricia Pearl Follow this link to read the review of this excellent Small Claims Guidebook. This comprehensive and very accessible guide will take you through the process of suing or defending a claim. This guide will help you take control of your litigation and make you more confident about doing it yourself. Applies to England and Wales

[JOSH_IOU]

Did you get a demand via letter as well?

[robert_harper_2000]

hmm.. it was a while ago not sure

[JOSH_IOU]

If you got a demand or if you were issued a notice Then you can use these legislations.

[Hobbie]

Won't work for Railway FPN, as it is covered by the Railway Byelaws, under the Penalty Fare Scheme, but yes it would work for parking.

[mc661]

This wont work for railway PF as you are not being 'fined' you are being charged a 'standard fare'.
As we all know proper fines cannot be given out by people other then JP's or judges.

The railway Penalty Fares are issued in accordance with railway bye-laws the railways acts and regulations issued by the department of transport (under the railways acts).
It could well backfire as the appeals people would just prosecute you under the regulation of the railways act 1889.

However most inspectors make minor mistakes on the notices and if you state this in your appeal you will win by default as they cannot enforce a incorrect notice.

[Hobbie]

Re mc661's post above, 100% accurate information regarding the PFN and Penalty Fare scheme... one other thing to check on this is that the rail operator (TOC) has actually registered its penalty fare scheme with the DoT, as only 3 have done so, any PF's issued can be argued as unlawful under the regulation of railways act.

Although, you may find the rail operator would proceed with court action, and let a judge decide it is was unlawful, is it worth taking those chances for a train ticket?

[mc661]

Originally Posted by Hobbie

Re mc661's post above, 100% accurate information regarding the PFN and Penalty Fare scheme... one other thing to check on this is that the rail operator (TOC) has actually registered its penalty fare scheme with the DoT, as only 3 have done so, any PF's issued can be argued as unlawful under the regulation of railways act.

Although, you may find the rail operator would proceed with court action, and let a judge decide it is was unlawful, is it worth taking those chances for a train ticket?

Hmm under the rules the TOCs have to give D(a)fT 3 months notice of an intention to start a PF scheme.
I was always under the impression that most if not all TOCs have been given permission to issue PFs. The most recent of which is Great Western.
Bear it in mind that FCC/NXEA/Southern/Southeastern dont need to seek permission as they have already got it under the old Network South East permission and it just carries over.

[Hobbie]

mc661, only 3 TOCs have registered the scheme, yes Network SE have continued, and it counted as 1 TOC for the purposes of the PF scheme.

The list is

Network SE
One C2C
Tyne & Wear Metro

Most other TOC's will issue an excess fare notice, and charge the £10.00 admin fee for processing this and effectively invoicing.

[mc661]

Originally Posted by Hobbie

mc661, only 3 TOCs have registered the scheme, yes Network SE have continued, and it counted as 1 TOC for the purposes of the PF scheme.

The list is

Network SE
One C2C
Tyne & Wear Metro

Most other TOC's will issue an excess fare notice, and charge the £10.00 admin fee for processing this and effectively invoicing.

Interesting.
Where is this list... just out of interest.
Because SWT, Chiltern, FGW and London Midland claim to charge PFs.

TfL can charge PFs under transport for london act 2008, which has allowed them to increase them to £50 (£25 if paid within xx days).

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Hobbie]

You can get a current list from the DFT website, alot of the lists are outdated from the SRA era.

[mc661]

Originally Posted by Hobbie

You can get a current list from the DFT website, alot of the lists are outdated from the SRA era.

Yeah have had a look on the DfT site but cant actually see anything under the PF section. Ill prob dump a Freedom of Information Act request into them tomorrow.

[Old-CodJA]

I know this message goes back a bit, but given other recent postings I thought it worth updating

Originally passed as an Act in its own right in 1984, legislation making it lawful for the then B.R. to charge a penalty is to be found in The Penalty Fares (Railways) Rules which you will find now incorporated in The Railways Act 1993 (as amended).

As others have said, that authority carried over to parts of the old NSE area and new schemes have been approved by the DfT for other rail operators since.

The legal right to charge a penalty exists for all those train operating companies that have been granted such authority.

Of course, that does not mean you cannot appeal the issue, but it needs to be done in accordance with the rules under which the penalty fares scheme is properly approved.

Any challenge under Bill of Rights legislation is doomed to failure where a railway penalty fare has been correctly issued