First Great Western Trains

[MilkTrayMan]

Originally Posted by MrShed

...my knowledge of rail law is absolutely zero...

Originally Posted by MrShed

MTM, I do not know what you are talking about...

MY advice is correct...

The OP's Hubby can NOT produce ANY Ticket to substantiate ANY Defence nor mitigation.
'Intent' is NOT applicable as a Defence in this case.
...The OP's Hubby had NO means to pay anyway.
If the OP's Hubby were to Defend, he would lose, get a higher Fine + be liable for further Costs.

The mere fact that the OP is suggested to say that her Hubby is a frequent traveller by Rail + that on this ONE occassion a genuine mistake was made, has a certain lack of creditability to it.
It would infer to the DJ that the OP's Hubby KNEW that his actions were illegal + that he should have known better!


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[MrShed]

Er....the OP had a ticket? Have you actually read the post?

[MilkTrayMan]

Originally Posted by MrShed

Er....the OP had a ticket? Have you actually read the post?

The OP did NOT have a valid ticket...

The OP's Hubby (...whose pending prosecution is the subject of this Thread btw...) is guilty as Charged.
The sensible option, is the one which the OP has already identified.
...That being the one of 'Damage Limitation'.

Ergo...MY advice is correct for the OP


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[MrShed]

I do not dispute that. But the fact that a ticket existed would make it a lot more difficult to prove the intent.

FYI, I have never advocated defending the claim. I have mentioned possible defences.

[MilkTrayMan]

There is NO credible Defence.


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[Hobbie]

MTM,

I think you will find the following to be correct.

For ANY offence to take place, mens rea has to be clear, regardless of if it is Railway Bye-Law's or Regulation of Railways Act, or ANY thing for that matter.

The OP's husband had a ticket, the ticket was not valid for that part of the train.

With the OP's husband boarding a train without a valid ticket, he only commits the offence IF and ONLY IF he remains within the area that his ticket was/is not valid for.

A prime defence for this is

Mr X boards a train at the nearest door to where he enters the platform, this door happens to be first class. Mr X only has a standard class ticket, Mr X has no "intention" of remaining in first class, and will make his way to Standard Class.

The Train Manager/Train Crew/Train Guard/Conductor what ever he may be, has to consider this, before reporting him, we were not there, we don't know what the OP's husband nor the train guard said, anything that we are told is just hearsay anyway.

For any offence, "Points to Prove" need to be proven, and one of them is to prove the intent that Mr X wished to remain in first class without paying or having paid the correct fare.

It is not illegal either to board a train without a ticket, you will find it 100% perfectly legal to board a train without a ticket, if the ticket office is closed, what is illegal to do though is to board a train having no money, therefore the intent is in place to evade paying.

MTM, you sound as if your an RPI claiming no defence, almost everything has a defence at law, and the Railway Bye-Laws have numerious defences, the only railway offence that does NOT have a defence is Endangering Safety of the Railway.

[MilkTrayMan]

Originally Posted by k1mmie

My husband usually purchases a first class weekly ticket for all zones travel. This is because he got sick of standing up. However this particular week he didnt...and got on first class. An inspector asked why he had got on first class. He said it was out of habit and that the train was usually packed and just didnt think. The inspector asked what the cost of the weekly ticket was and he told him. He also asked the station he got off and where he was going. He then asked him to pay the £20 penalty fare to which my husband had to admit he had no means as he had left his wallet at home as he was running late. The inspector then escorted him off at the next station. This was not the station he was originally going to. (i.e. place of work). He was then left stranded with his ticket taken off him and no means of arriving at his destination. I had to drive for an hour and a half to pick him up. But by then it was not anywhere near his work and he had to miss a day at work and earnings...

Originally Posted by Hobbie

MTM,

I think you will find the following to be correct.
Hmmmm...

For ANY offence to take place, mens rea has to be clear, regardless of if it is Railway Bye-Law's or Regulation of Railways Act, or ANY thing for that matter.
Exactly HOW MUCH clarity would U like Hobbie??...

The OP's husband had a ticket, the ticket was not valid for that part of the train.
Sect 10(2) No person shall be in or on any train except the parts of it intended for use by that person.

With the OP's husband boarding a train without a valid ticket, he only commits the offence IF and ONLY IF he remains within the area that his ticket was/is not valid for.
Sect 13(1)(ii) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice:
...indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category.

A prime defence for this is

Mr X boards a train at the nearest door to where he enters the platform, this door happens to be first class. Mr X only has a standard class ticket, Mr X has no "intention" of remaining in first class, and will make his way to Standard Class.
The Op stated that her Hubby usually travelled in 1st Class cos 'he got sick of standing up' in 2nd Class.
This implies 'intent' with regards to remain seated in 1st Class.

The Train Manager/Train Crew/Train Guard/Conductor what ever he may be, has to consider this, before reporting him, we were not there, we don't know what the OP's husband nor the train guard said, anything that we are told is just hearsay anyway.
Revenue Protection Teams regulary carry out covert operations.
This MAY involve following + recording such details necessary to obtain a conviction, of those travellers suspected of attempting to defraud a TOC.

Although the OP has NOT Posted as such, it may well be that her Hubby had been under surveilence throughout the week + that he had travelled in 1st Class EVERY day that week, as usual.
I am sure that U could imagine as to what sort of Fine/Conviction that could be imposed, if the matter was proceed to Court + such evidence was provided?...

For any offence, "Points to Prove" need to be proven, and one of them is to prove the intent that Mr X wished to remain in first class without paying or having paid the correct fare.
The OP has already stated that that has been her Hubby's wish on previous occassions.
He did NOT have a valid ticket to travel in 1st Class.
He WAS given an opportunity to 'upgrade' onboard (...albeit a Penalty Charge type Fare)
He had NO money to do so.

It is not illegal either to board a train without a ticket, you will find it 100% perfectly legal to board a train without a ticket, if the ticket office is closed...
I have consistently made reference to such proviso's...

...what is illegal to do though is to board a train having no money, therefore the intent is in place to evade paying.
Errrm...Which bit of this have I failed to convey to U Hobbie??...

MTM, you sound as if your an RPI claiming no defence, almost everything has a defence at law, and the Railway Bye-Laws have numerious defences, the only railway offence that does NOT have a defence is Endangering Safety of the Railway.

Unfortunately, U are wrong Hobbie.

Whilst a person (...in this case the OP's Hubby) MAY claim 'mitigating circumstances', that is NOT the same as providing a bona fide defence against a charge of clearly contravening any particular Railway Bylaw.


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[crh]

Originally Posted by MilkTrayMan

Revenue Protection Teams regulary carry out covert operations.
This MAY involve following + recording such details necessary to obtain a conviction, of those travellers suspected of attempting to defraud a TOC.

Although the OP has NOT Posted as such, it may well be that her Hubby had been under surveilence throughout the week + that he had travelled in 1st Class EVERY day that week, as usual.
I am sure that U could imagine as to what sort of Fine/Conviction that could be imposed, if the matter was proceed to Court + such evidence was provided?.

...

LOL! Damm MTM i laughed so hard i cried when i read that. . I think someone has been reading too much devil may care perphaps?

train operatoring companies carry out covert surveilence? please this is 21st century uk not post war east germany under the stasi. I'm sure this is probably highly illegal as only the uk goverment can really do legit surveilence on people and even then this is highly controlled and documented.

[Hobbie]

Wonder if these Train Operating Companies make applications under RIPA to carry out these "covert operations of following+recording such details".

It sounds like something a RPI or Revenue Manager would spurt out to strike fear into passengers who "occassional" travel without tickets, I do not condone ticketless travel, far from it, but some people do have genuine reasons for not purchasing a ticket.

[crh]

please see below link MTM

Covert surveillance | Home Office -

The police, intelligence services and other public authorities can lawfully use covert surveillance if they have an authorisation or warrant signed by an authorised official.


is a train company a public authoritie? errrrrrmm no!

[Hobbie]

Some like to think so

[heartopp]

It is against the Law to board a Train without a valid ticket (...subject to certain well documented exceptions...

Now this could be argued, because he did not have a first class ticket, does not mean that his standard class ticket was invalid

(sorry, it took me too long to read before i saved this).

Must add, that CRH - you are rather condersending.

[Hobbie]

Unfortunately, U are wrong Hobbie.

Fortunately, I am not wrong, I am very well aware of the Railway Bye-Laws, Regulation of Railways Act and British Transport Commission Act that covers almost every possible offence relating to the railway or "The Board"

Unfortunately for the OP, your posts are extremely like those of a RPI/RM of a TOC, providing twisted and misleading information, It is only an offence to board a train WITHOUT a ticket if you have no way to pay for the intended journey, just as it is also an offence to enter a resturant and order food knowing that you have no money to pay.

You can board a train without a ticket, so long as you purchase one either on board or from the station upon alighting the train, it would only be an offence if you boarded with the intention of evading the fare, and proving that the person had that intention is almost impossible if the person when stopped has on the person enough money to cover the ticket price for the FULL journey, you have no way to prove at law what the person was thinking, unless of course the person admits that it was his/her intention to travel and not pay.

Just because a station has a ticket office, doesn't mean anyone has to purchase a ticket before boarding, although it is generally in the passengers interest to do so before boarding as most rail passes that carry discounts aren't accepted onboard.

[crh]

Originally Posted by heartopp

Must add, that CRH - you are rather condersending.

I always thought i was more arrogrant than condersending!