Penalty Charges on Trains - Page 4

Paintball · 30th January 2008, 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilkTrayMan

Yes PB, I seen the FULL written article also...

BBC NEWS | England | Fare strikers target rail service
...Soooo typical of Bristol Trouble Makers!...

Noticed how the 'Rebellion' crumbled, when they realised that resistance was futile though?!...

...

Weakling South Westerners ... it was almost worth the while trundling down to Bath Spa to take part with one of the faux tickets, I wouldn't have crumbled ... what larks

anon0 · 8th February 2008, 12:13

Can anybody advise me to the South West trains policy for penalty fares/’fare dodging’.

I was stopped without a valid ticket and the inspector had reason to believe that it was my intention to avoid paying. He wrote a lengthy report of our exchange and said he would be reporting this matter to South West trains who would then send me a letter.

He said that he could have asked me to pay a penalty fair but, as I denied trying to avoid paying altogether when he first approached me, the matter would be reported instead. I tried to determine the procedures that follow but he was not at liberty to discuss this. Can I expect a court summons, a £1000 fine, a criminal record or just a penalty notice in the post? I have no idea what happens now.

They have clear evidence that I tried to avoid paying in the form of a ticket that didn’t cover my whole journey. However they also have evidence that it’s my first offence as my oyster card (now in their possession) had expired the day before.

I won’t bore you with the circumstances behind my non payment but any response would be welcome. Thank you.

JOSH_IOU · 8th February 2008, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigNick2

Hehe now I want to know the complex answer

aaaaaahhhhh

newfoundglory · 8th February 2008, 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by anon0

Can anybody advise me to the South West trains policy for penalty fares/’fare dodging’.

I was stopped without a valid ticket and the inspector had reason to believe that it was my intention to avoid paying. He wrote a lengthy report of our exchange and said he would be reporting this matter to South West trains who would then send me a letter.

He said that he could have asked me to pay a penalty fair but, as I denied trying to avoid paying altogether when he first approached me, the matter would be reported instead. I tried to determine the procedures that follow but he was not at liberty to discuss this. Can I expect a court summons, a £1000 fine, a criminal record or just a penalty notice in the post? I have no idea what happens now.

They have clear evidence that I tried to avoid paying in the form of a ticket that didn’t cover my whole journey. However they also have evidence that it’s my first offence as my oyster card (now in their possession) had expired the day before.

I won’t bore you with the circumstances behind my non payment but any response would be welcome. Thank you.

Did he ask you to pay the fare? If so, did you pay it?

Why do they have clear evidence you tried to avoid paying? Did you just forget to re-new your ticket?

Usually its unlikely that you would be prosecuted for trying to avoid payment, as they would have to prove that was your intention. In order to protect yourself somewhat, I would recommend you make a subject access request for the whole 8-weeks of travel history that TfL hold on you (assuming your Oyster card is registered). You could use this as evidence as part of your defence in court if it ever got that far.

You may still have some strict liability under railway bylaws which state you must have a valid ticket. In this case, it would unlikely be in the public interest (and their benefit) for them to prosecute you. If they decided to prosecute under railway bylaws get a solicitor and settle out-of court... as you could make it more worthwhile for them by compensating them directly as an alternative to going to court.

anon0 · 8th February 2008, 13:19

thank you for your reply

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfoundglory

Did he ask you to pay the fare? If so, did you pay it?

No he didn't ask me. When he initially approached me I didn't admit to having been on the train therefore, when it was later proven I was, he said the matter shall be reported and the chance to pay for my ticket had passed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfoundglory

Why do they have clear evidence you tried to avoid paying? Did you just forget to re-new your ticket?

Because I had a SW trains ticket only covering part of my journey. I was going to renew and use my oyster card once I got to the underground. He questioned how I had got past the barriers at my departure station and I was honset and showed him the ticket which he confiscated as 'evidence'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfoundglory

Usually its unlikely that you would be prosecuted for trying to avoid payment, as they would have to prove that was your intention. In order to protect yourself somewhat, I would recommend you make a subject access request for the whole 8-weeks of travel history that TfL hold on you (assuming your Oyster card is registered). You could use this as evidence as part of your defence in court if it ever got that far.

Given the facts in his possession and the statement he has wriiten, intent on my part appears to be as clear as day. All my reasons would be seen as circumstances/hypothetical not facts. I wouldn't so much like a way out of this, more so I'd like to know what happens if they prosecute? Whats the likely punishment?

I can obtain tfl records showing that my oyster expired the day before and that this hasn't happened before would this mean more leniency is shown?

newfoundglory · 8th February 2008, 14:57

Hang on, this Oyster card which had "expired"....

did this contain a travel card which had expired the day before?

and, had this still been valid on the day would this ticket have covered the whole of the journey you had not paid for (ie would it have had enough zones) ?

anon0 · 8th February 2008, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfoundglory

Hang on, this Oyster card which had "expired"....

did this contain a travel card which had expired the day before?

and, had this still been valid on the day would this ticket have covered the whole of the journey you had not paid for?

This was an oyster monthly travel card which had expired the day before. It would have been valid for the whole journey.

newfoundglory · 8th February 2008, 15:25

Then you never intended to evade the fare.... i'm guessing the only reason you travelled without a ticket was that you were unable to buy a Travelcard on Oyster at the National Rail station, yet you had intended to buy one all along when you got to your destination. You should make a subject access request and get the information stored on your Oyster card.

Thats not to say you havent comitted an offence under bylaws.... but if they try and prosecute you for fare evasion under Regulation of Railways Act 1889, you must see a solicitor. I fail to see how they could prove you had intended to evade the fare.

I'm guessing SWT may write to you and ask for your explanation of events, or you may just get a summons.

newfoundglory · 8th February 2008, 15:35

i'm not a lawyer, so i'm posting for information and entertainment purposes only. do not assume anything i have said is correct.

anon0 · 8th February 2008, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfoundglory

Then you never intended to evade the fare.... i'm guessing the only reason you travelled without a ticket was that you were unable to buy a Travelcard on Oyster at the National Rail station, yet you had intended to buy one all along when you got to your destination. You should make a subject access request and get the information stored on your Oyster card.

Thats not to say you havent comitted an offence under bylaws.... but if they try and prosecute you for fare evasion under Regulation of Railways Act 1889, you must see a solicitor. I fail to see how they could prove you had intended to evade the fare.

I'm guessing SWT may write to you and ask for your explanation of events, or you may just get a summons.

You are right. Had the ability to buy an Oyster travelcard existed at the National Rail station I would have bought my monthly travelcard there. I intended to do so at my destination but was stopped by the inspector before I could do so.

The problem I have is that I purchased a ticket at the National Rail station and used it to get past the barriers. This ticket was not valid for the whole journey. I doubt they'd be interested in my reasons for purchasing a ticket that didn't cover the full journey. Going on the facts i did not have a valid ticket.

Also, the statement produced by the inspector amounted to an admission of guilt. I did not have the time or inclination to argue with him as I was by then almost an hour late for work. Also, all the facts were against me and I had already initially told him I wasn't on the train (more out of panic than any attempt to deceive).

I understand you are not a lawyer but appreciate your replies nonetheless.

newfoundglory · 8th February 2008, 15:50

You signed a statement admitting your guilt? I wouldnt know what to suggest in that case, and would recommend you see speak to a solicitor as soon as possible to get some advice.

There is a difference between not having a valid ticket, and intending to evade the fare.

JOSH_IOU · 8th February 2008, 15:56

were you forced to sign the statement?
Did you feel threatened to sign the statement?

JOSH_IOU · 8th February 2008, 15:58

If there not interested in your reasons for not buying a ticket then a judge may.

It would be logical to seek the advice of an individual or a firm regulated by the law society.

JOSH_IOU · 8th February 2008, 15:59

please bare in mind the inspector may of been following instructions from his line manager. who may have been given naff advice.

anon0 · 8th February 2008, 16:07

I'm not concerned so much about proving who was right and wrong or avoiding a penalty charge or a court fine. I understand that the facts say i was not in possesion of a valid ticket etc.

I'm concerned with having a criminal record for this.

JOSH_IOU · 8th February 2008, 16:15

well you may have to prove who was right or wrong.
If you simply admit the fine and leave it be then its on record that you dodged the fare.

I am not sure but if you have payed the fine then there would be no need to prosecute you. Surley

anon0 · 8th February 2008, 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by anon0

When he initially approached me I didn't admit to having been on the train therefore, when it was later proven I was, he said the matter shall be reported and the chance to pay for my ticket had passed.

He didn't actually ask me to pay for the fare. At first he asked for my ticket. I showed him the oyster card and he checked it using a machine. Then he asked where I had come form. I didn't admit to being on the train at first. I realise it looked dishonest but I panicked at first. Later I offered to pay the fare and he said my chance had passed when I said i was not on the train.

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