Transport police

[The GodMother]

Originally Posted by pt2537

its still an offence in england to eat a mince pie on Christmas day too there are many absurd laws in england

the law should be applied proportionately too so the punishment should fit the crime

however, if there is a defence available to this lad he has the right to use it to defend himself

there is a principle in English law of the presumption of innocence until proven guilty before a court of law

it is my contention that if there is a defence available to this boy he should be entitled to it and therefore i will if possible to do so help him

Hi Paul,

Please dont tell me this was actually law. It is so stupid, scuse me while l scoff the mince pies, I have heard of sum allerged laws but this one must have been made buy some who hates mince pies.

Chrissi

[pt2537]

Originally Posted by The GodMother

Hi Paul,

Please dont tell me this was actually law. It is so stupid, scuse me while l scoff the mince pies, I have heard of sum allerged laws but this one must have been made buy some who hates mince pies.

Chrissi

yes it is actually law, it comes from the days of cromwell

[The GodMother]

I cant believe it. Did you find out if it be sacked yet?

[Belaflat]

You should look up the Town and Police clauses act of 1847 for some wierd laws which are still valid today.
Prosecutions for breach of the peace are under this act so the rest of it in theory could still be used and for some other things still is such as hackney carriages but the best which could in theory still be used are...... wait for it.....

Every person who wilfully and indecently exposes his person:

Every person who publicly offers for sale or distribution, or exhibits to public view any profane, . . . book, paper, print, drawing, painting, or representation, or sings any profane or obscene song or ballad, or uses any profane or obscene language:

Every person who wantonly discharges any firearm, or throws or discharges any stone or other missile, or makes any bonfire, or throws or sets fire to any firework:

Every person who wilfully and wantonly disturbs any inhabitant, by pulling or ringing any door bell, or knocking at any door, or who wilfully and unlawfully extinguishes the light of any lamp:

Every person who flies any kite, or who makes or uses any slide upon ice or snow:

Every person who cleanses, hoops, fires, washes, or scalds any cask or tub, or hews, saws, bores, or cuts any timber or stone, or slacks, sifts, or screens any lime:

Every person who throws or lays down any stones, coals, slate, shells, lime, bricks, timber, iron, or other materials (except building materials so inclosed as to prevent mischief to passengers):

Every person who beats or shakes any carpet, rug, or mat (except door mats, beaten or shaken before the hour of eight in the morning):

Every person who fixes or places any flower-pot or box, or other heavy article, in any upper window, without sufficiently guarding the same against being blown down:

Every person who throws from the roof or any part of any house or other building any slate, brick, wood, rubbish, or other thing, except snow thrown so as not to fall on any passenger:

Every occupier of any house or other building or other person who orders or permits any person in his service to stand on the sill of any window, in order to clean, paint, or perform any other operation upon the outside of such window, or upon any house or other building within the said limits, unless such window be in the sunk or basement story:

Every person who leaves open any vault or cellar, or the entrance from any street to any cellar or room underground, without a sufficient fence or handrail, or leaves defective the door, window, or other covering of any vault or cellar, or who does not sufficiently fence any area, pit, or sewer left open, or who leaves such open area, pit, or sewer without a sufficient light after sunset to warn and prevent persons from falling thereinto:

Every person who throws or lays any dirt, litter, or ashes, or nightsoil, or any carrion, fish, offal, or rubbish, on any street, or causes any offensive matter to run from any manufactory, brewery, slaughter-house, butcher’s shop, or dunghill into any street: Provided always, that it shall not be deemed an offence to lay sand or other materials in any street in time of frost, to prevent accidents, or litter or other suitable materials to prevent the freezing of water in pipes, or in case of sickness to prevent noise, if the party laying any such things causes them to be removed as soon as the occasion for them ceases:

Every person who keeps any pigstye to the front of any street, not being shut out from such street by a sufficient wall or fence, or who keeps any swine in or near any street, so as to be a common nuisance.

So the next time you beat your mat or shake it before 8 am..watch out....there could be a plod about.



Sorry about the thread drift...

[The GodMother]

I cant believe sum of these laws. Now l can get the kids when they cum carol signing cool now whats the number for 999?

[MilkTrayMan]

Originally Posted by sequenci

MTM there is a wonderful word called discretion.

I agree sequenci, that's why any normal person may have removed their feet from the seat when they seen the police officer approach, + if challenged, apologised.
That may have sufficed + placated the police officer.

Perhaps they may have even placed their feet back on the seat when the police officer had gone?...who knows, or even cares about supposition?!

The fact is...the OP's son was seen to have committed a crime + has been processed accordingly.
Any ignorance of such crime is NO defence in the eyes of the law.

Originally Posted by The GodMother

MTM,

...A inflatable stool has not been found any where by us and would not necessarily work for everyone.

For years doctors have advised elavation of feet whenever possible.

Maybe you so do some reasearch on the facts of the medical condition before you comment in future.

This internet thingy is a marvelous thing don't ya fink??
...Amazing what ya can find if ya can actually bothered to look eh?!

Commercial link removed

Whilst the OP may consider arthritis a mitigating circumstance, would the son have committed the crime on a full train??
Would it have been ok for someone to have spray painted the window cos they had an ailment concerning Bright Lights??

Mitagating circumstances aren't the issue here, it's whether or NOT someone putting their feet on a railway carriage seat is a crime + whether it should be punishable as it has been.

Originally Posted by ODC

And lets not forget COMMON SENSE. Now because of the idiotic attitude of the po;iceman one more family has less respect for the law. If it were me or my son I would be contesting this matter as far as it went.

That would always be your preogative ODC.
Personally, I would have berated MY son for doing it in the first place + then again for getting caught for doing it!!!

I personally, have had to console numerous innocent train passengers, who have had their clothes ruined by mindless + selfish others who have put their feet on railway carriage seats.
Two ocassions in particular stand out...
Once where a Bride-to-be had placed her newly collected wedding dress on the seat next to her,
+ on another ocassion, someone else was on their way to a job interview, after being unemployed for a considerable time + was partially sighted.

That interview/job was to be their very last hope of participating in mainstream society, by leading an active + fullfilling role + contributing their 110%.
They wanted to be able to hold their head high + say to people, YES I DO HAVE A DISABILITY......BUT I AM 'NORMAL', JUST LIKE U ARE!!!!

Forgive me if I show NO remorse to the OP's son, who had a choice about his actions!...

Originally Posted by The GodMother

PT2537,

I laughed so much l gave my self hiccups at your reply to milk tray man. My other half laughed as well.???...Unless a person was trouserless/knickerless when they sat on the seat, they do NOT have the same effect as someone who may have trodden in something unmentionable....Therefore pt2537's example is fundamentally flawed.

...I thought it was rather insensitive to LAUGH at pt2537's genuine attempt to help explain The GodMother!...especially when the OP is maybe relying on their input, so as to perhaps use the same example in any legal proceedings that may ensue...

Any idea on how to get rid of hiccups?...I know of a certain cure!...

Chrissi

[ODC]

Milk Tray Man whilst I value your comments I feel that the Police Officer was being over zealous in his enforcement of British Rail bye-laws. Had he remembered his/her training and used common sense and descretion he may have had a more satisfactory result. He must really have been scraping the bottom for cases that day. Lets hope that if the said police officer is in trouble some day that the OPs son is forgiving enough to go and help him instead of walking past because that police officer gave him a criminal record for a petty offence that should have been dealt with by advice and warning.

[diskmandave]

Could I please remind people that this is a self help forum.

What has happened has happened and the Original Poster, I assume, started this thread for help because of what happened. I can't see anywhere in the OP's posts that says he/she wants an acrimonious debate (from a certain quarter) about legal or moral obligations.

No one is denying anything here and all that is being sought is help for the way forward.

It isn't helping the OP in anyway whatsoever, now that everyone is piling in with their twopence worth over trivial moral issues, which, quite frankly in my opinion, don't concern them.

Given that, i'ld respectfully request that everyone allow this thread to return to the questions asked by the OP and be allowed to remain on topic.

Thank you, Dave.

[pt2537]

Dave, I couldnt have put it better my self ,

[The GodMother]

Originally Posted by ODC

Milk Tray Man whilst I value your comments I feel that the Police Officer was being over zealous in his enforcement of British Rail bye-laws. Had he remembered his/her training and used common sense and descretion he may have had a more satisfactory result. He must really have been scraping the bottom for cases that day. Lets hope that if the said police officer is in trouble some day that the OPs son is forgiving enough to go and help him instead of walking past because that police officer gave him a criminal record for a petty offence that should have been dealt with by advice and warning.

Part of the problem ODC is what is common sense. Maybe they had been having lots of complaints about this later in the day and the officer decided that he was going to have a productive day over busting ppl for bye-laws.

I feel that they son has had a bad treatment as l was on a train on Monday, 10th december, and somebody had been smoking on the train as there was cigarette butts on a table. The person l thought was not there but it turns out he was in the bathroom. He then sat down and had another fag and the conductor walked past him without saying anything about it to him.

There were no smoking signs on every window, door etc and nothing was done as far as l no so he got away with breaking the smoking law which is a more serious offence than what the OP son done.

I got off at the next stop but l can safely say for the whole time l was on the train he was not said anything to buy anyone including me but you would have thought that the conductor would have done something about it.

Chrissi

[The GodMother]

Pen,

Did you contact the courts? If so what did they advise.

Chrissi

[Pen]

Hi everyone.
I am so sorry not to have gotten back to you as i have been of the site for a while. Thanks to the majority of your responses.

The Out Come.
My son checked his bank statements and the cheque for the £30.00 had been cashed by the rail Authority.

I phoned the court and asked them about the hearing on the 15th of January, they had no knowledge of one. With that being the case we just ignored the letter and nothing further has come in the post. As far as we are concerned my son has paid the penalty and it's been excepted the issue is now closed.

MTM your comment on blame the parents not the teachers or government workers are in my opinion pretty stupid. I have read quite a few of your posts on this site and you come across as being both very opinionated and judgemental. My son's parents are both a teacher and a Ex Government Worker ie social worker. His sibling is also a Deputy Head Teacher at the age of 28 of a senior school in inner London.

My son is no hooligan as you classified him. he is a well educated, polite well mannered member of society who has never ever before been in any trouble with the law. He was a student traveling to work at 6.30 am to earn some pocket money during the summer. I am proud to say he passed his degree and is now working full time. If he is typical of what you class as a hooligan then as a society we have no worries.

My son got arthritis through the MMR Booster vaccines and as suffered it really bad from the age of 10 he has spent most of his teenage years in agony coping with numerous steroid injections in his joint's. He could if he was the type, have a chip on his shoulder, stay at home all day and claim incapacity benefits etc and who would blame him, but he doesnt he works full time and lives at home.

if you knew anything about the suffering of people with arthritis then you would know that the most painful time for them is in the morning. He did not give the guard a mouthful. he agreed with him and apologised and paid the penalty what more would you like him to do. I am well awere of your views regarding train travel through another thread (re penalty chargers on trains) and (I suppose previously being paid for upholding the Laws of this Sceptred Isle was wrong was it??... ) can only say thank god you were not on a train with him that morning, who knows you might have had a second chance at being a witness for the prosocution.

Once again, thanks everyone especily PT and Godmother for your helpful responce If we do hear anymore about it I will keep you informed.
I have had some laughs reading this thread
Pen

[The GodMother]

Pen.

I am glad the outcome was favourable towards your son.

They should now be apologising to you and your son for the problems they have caused let alone faking or attempting to fake a court document.

I also have had some laughs reading this thread especailly the stupid laws.

Good luck with your other battles.

Chrissi