Gemspan v. Black Horse Finance

[gemspan]

Hi there

I took out a secured loan with Black Horse Finance in October 2005. It as the worst decision of my life but I was desperate at the time and decided to go for it (a fool and her money are easily parted!!!!!). Anyway, when I went in to see them they offered me 2 interest rates on the loan. One interest rate was lower if I took PPI. If I didnt take PPI then the interest rate would be significantly higher. The PPI was not explained to me in detail. I am self employed. I decided to go for the loan with PPI because I felt that it would be security if I was ill or had to give up my business.

In June of this year I wanted to remortgage my house and contacted BH to ask if I could keep some of the loan going as I wouldnt have enough money to pay off the whole amount. They told me it wouldnt be a problem. I got down the whole road with the remortgage and just before it was going to settle BH told me that they werent prepared to do that anymore.

This year has been a terrible year for me as I have been very ill and had to claim on the insurance for 3 months. It took them 4 months to pay the amount due even although I jumped through hoops to provide them with the information they needed.

Prior to claiming on the PPI I got a settlement figure for the loan which was just in excess of £15,000. When I got another settlement figure after they refused to carry some of the loan over, the settlement figure had gone up to just under £20,000. when I queried this they told me it was because I had claimed on the insurance.

I have written them a letter advising them that I feel this insurance was mis-sold to me. I should never have been offered a lower interest rate to take PPI!!!!! Also, I have had the loan for 1 year and the term is 10 years. They say that I have to pay all the premiums even although I am settling early.

I have asked them for a breakdown of how this works. Each settlement figure I get is higher than the last, even although I am paying my monthly instalment. Noboby seems to know how this works. the people who are selling the PPI dont have a clue and even the manager agrees that it is wrong that I have to pay the full premium. I don't mind paying what I have claimed ie £700 but I am definitely not paying £5000 when I am settling the loan 9 years early.

My house is currently on the market and I want this settled before the sale goes through so that I can put all this last year behind me. I have asked them on numerous occasions to provide this information but they refuse to do so. I have now sent a letter advising the manager that if I do not hear from them within the next 14 days (that was 7 days ago!) I will be taking it further to their Head Office, OFT and Trading Standards.

This is really getting me down as I originally only took a loan out for £15,000 and now it seems I have to pay back £20,000 even although I have made payments of £265 for a year. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards
Annie

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[reidnet]

Hiya Annie,
Sorry for delay in looking at this for you, but I was away all weekend at Christmas doo..lol, Just recovered and I think my brain if alchohol free now..lol.

Firstly, I am surprised that the PPI paid out to someone who was self employed, but these guys make up terms and conditions as they go along.

Being a secured loan on your property is not good Im afraid, It is like a second mortgage and you will have to clear this loan at the time of sale of your property. Also beware that they will also have fees that they will charge you for the release of the security on your property. Firstplus charged me £150 for this and I had to go through their Solicitors in Scotland to have the security removed from my property, they charged about £140 for this. I did fight with Firstplus about their £150 as I had paid their solicitors in Scotland to do the Job. After a bit of a fight they refunded the £150. Im now after them for £750 in early settlement interest charges that they took. That one is at court stage..lol

Im not too sure what refund they will offer you on the PPI as you have claimed on it, again read the small print in the terms and conditions, or if you can scan them send them to me and I will have a look through it. Going by the way they seem to work put a settlement figure including your PPI premium, I take it that the Policy is one of these single payment policies ? again if it is beware as most of these only cover for a 5 year period. Dead sneaky I know..I got caught with that too.

It may well be worth having a word with your local trading standards office regarding this too, they are the ones that police the consumer credit Act. Again it will depend if you get someone there that knows all the inns and outs.

Another outfit that may be worth a call is the FISA The Finance Industry Standards Association - our title page I know that they Regulate Black Horse Finance, I spoke to Dereck there and he was very helpful. Though they took my complaint about GE Money / Purpleloans seriously, and their senior investigating officer had a telephone conversation with a senior Director at GE who said he would contact me to try and resolve my complaint. To date though I have not been contacted again by GE Money.

I think you will also find that your Insurance policy is actually with Lloyds TSB Insurance.. Blackhorse Finance is Part of Lloyds and I better not put in print what I think of Lloyds...lol

Im not sure If Ive been much help.. If you are confussed with anything give me a shout either here or by PM.

Ian

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[gemspan]

HI Reidnet

Thanks for your reply. Glad to hear you're feeling better now after a weekend filled with festive cheer!!!

I dont think I got any details from Black Horse about this insurance. All I got was the finance agreement. However, tomorrow I will look through my box of stuff and see if I have anything there. If I have I will check all the small print etc., but to be honest I dont think I received anything. It was all very unprofessional!!! I have been stupid I know but when you are desperate you do desparate things!!!

Where do I start with claiming the PPI. Are there any standard letter templates and where can I look to research this?

Also, am I right in thinking that if I received JSA I don't have to pay court costs. I have just given up my business and am going to the jobcentre tomorrow to claim JSA.

Look forward to hearing from you and I'll look into the paperwork tomorrow.

Cheers
Annie

[reidnet]

How the **** do they expect you to understand the terms and conditions of an insurance if they do not provide you with them ?.. Typical Black Horse..I had dealins with them a few years back and as you say they dont understand their own terms and conditions.

I would ask them to supply you witha copy of the terms and conditions that relate to your policy.

It may also be worth a call to your local trading standards office.

Ian

[gemspan]

Hi Ian

Have managed to dig out the original documentation for this loan. There is a schedule attached to the finance agreement regarding the PPI insurance.

As I have said before, this insurance was sold to me by way of offering me a reduction in the interest rate if I took the insurance. Firstly, this should not have been done. Am I right? I should have the best deal on the table with the option of taking the insurance; taking the insurance should not entitle me to a better deal!!! Secondly, the total cost of the insurance, including interest, was £7729.20. The monthly payments to this are £64.41!!! Having looked through the schedule of conditions, it states that the unemployment benefit is not applicable if you are self-employed. This effectively makes the policy null and void because they knew I was self employed when I went for the loan and they offered the insurance. They sold it as a "peace of mind" insurance if things ever went pear-shaped.

I was going to draft a letter to them and their head office advising them that I have been mis-sold this policy and in fact the policy does not offer the full protection that was sold to me as they knew I was self employed when they sold the insurance. Do you agree that I should do this and that my thoughts are correct regarding this?

Ta much
Annie

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[reidnet]

Hi Annie,
Going by what you have said here, Yes they Mis Sold you the policy, If it does not offer protection for the self employed and they knew you were self employed the def Mis Sold. "For your peace of mind..llf..that one really make me gringe..More like the nice commision that the seller will be payed. Did you know the commision paid to agents that sell these thype of policies can be as much as 65% of the premium.

I would write to them straight away, I would address your Complaint to the CEO of the company at their head office, Half of the time it ends up with some numpty otherwise.

I would give them 14 Days as per a prelim letter then a LBA 14 days after if they do not reply in the first 14 Days.

And Write COMPLAINT in bold at the top of your letter..

Good Luck

Ian

	Small Claims kit by Lawpack Sue your bank as many times as you like with just one Small Claims kit by Lawpack. Follow this link to read the review. The kit contains everything you need: instruction manual, templates, examples, forms and a comprehensive CDRom. Applies to England and Wales

[gemspan]

Right then!!!! Sent the following 2 letters today with copies to Black Horse Office in Edinburgh FAO The Manager. Basically sent one to the insurance company regarding the insurance - giving them 7 days to explain themselves and one to CEO giving him 14 days to sort it all out or will take further action.

Here goes!!!!!

Customer Care
Lloyds TSB General Insurance Limited
TredegarPark
Newport
South Wales
NP10 8SB

12th December 2006

Re: account

COMPLAINT & Request for return of PPI Insurance & Interest.

Dear Sir or Madam,

I took out the above loan for £1500 on 11/11/05 . When I took it out, I signed up for Payment Protection Insurance as I was advised by "employee" of Black Horse Finance, Orchard Brae House, Orchard Brae, Edinburgh that I would get a lower interest rate on my loan if I were to take out PPI insurance and that it would be “peace of mind” for me if I was ever sick or became unemployed. I decided to take the PPI because I am self-employed and it would mean that my payments would be covered should anything untoward happen to me during the term of the loan.

When I took out the loan the terms and conditions of the PPI were not explained fully to me, merely that I would have insurance cover to pay my monthly instalments. At no time was it explained to me that because I was self employed I would not be able to claim the unemployment cover. Also, I have since discovered that you are not allowed to make PPI a condition of taking out a loan, nor offering reduced interest rates by way of an incentive to take the PPI unless you include the costs of PPI in your quoted loan interest rate, which you did not do. I therefore consider that I have been mis-sold this expensive insurance, which was wholly inadequate for my personal circumstances. "employee" was aware that I was self employed and should have explained this exemption to me at the time of agreeing to the PPI.

I became ill earlier this year and had to claim on the insurance. Prior to claiming on the insurance, the settlement figure on this loan was just over £15,000. Since claiming, the settlement figure has gone up to almost £20,000. I have written 2 letters to Black Horse Finance in Edinburgh (copies enclosed) asking them to outline the reason for this increase in settlement figure but, to date, have received no reply – apart from holding letters. In my last correspondence, dated 28th November 2006 I advised the Manager that he had 14 days within which to reply or I would be escalating the matter. The 14 days timescale are now up.


The cost of the Policy was £4695.12 plus £2934.08 interest making £7729.20. I believe this sum to be extortionate in relation to a loan of £15,000 and I request a refund of the policy fee plus any interest paid on the fee.

I would appreciate a reply to this letter within seven days. If you reject this complaint please supply me with a final response letter, so that I can take up the matter with the Financial Ombudsman Service, and if need be make a claim via the small claims court to recover the PPI insurance fee + Interest + costs.

Yours faithfully,









Cc: The Manager, Black Horse Finance
Hard copy of letter in post sent via recorded delivery.
The Managing Director, Black Horse Finance


AND



The Chief Executive
Black Horse Limited
St William House
Tresmillian Terrace
CARDIFF
CF10 5BH


12th December 2006

Re: account


LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Dear Sir or Madam,


PPI Insurance on Black Horse Loan £15,000
Loan taken out on 11 November 2005

I am writing to advise you that, despite repeated requests to try and resolve the dispute I have regarding my Black Horse Loan and PPI insurance and my settlement figure for said loan, to date I have had no response from your office in Edinburgh. I attach copies of the letters sent which date back to 31st October 2006 and also a letter I sent today to Lloyds TSB Insurance. I have been trying to gain information regarding the PPI insurance mis-sold to me at the time I agreed to take out the above loan but nobody appears to be interested in supplying me with the requested information.

I believe that the policy was sold in a deceitful manner by a member of your staff and this matter has also been discussed with the FSA and a complaint form will be completed for the Financial Ombudsman Service should a satisfactory conclusion to this dispute not be reached

At this point in time I would bring to your attention the FSA principles for the “Treating customers fairly – towards fair outcomes for consumers .

Principle 7 “A Firm must pay due regard to the information needs of its clients, and communicate information to them in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading”.

Principle 9 “A firm must take reasonable care to ensure the suitability of its advice and discretionary decisions for any customer who is entitled to rely upon its judgement”.


I believe your member of staff "employee" from your Edinburgh Office blatantly disregarded these principles, the terms of my contentions are as set out in my letter dated 31st October 2006.

What I require

A refund in the form of a deposit to my above numbered account in the total sum of £4795.12 plus interest plus payments paid to the date of settlement of this dispute.

I require repayment in full of this money and. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus my costs and without further notice.


I will also submit a completed complaint form regarding this matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service on 19th December 2006.

I trust you will take this matter seriously and look forward to receiving your reply within the next 14 days offering a positive outcome for this dispute.



Yours faithfully,







Cc: The Manager, Black Horse Finance, Edinburgh Office


Will let you know the outcome
Annie

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[dellydaisy]

Will be watching your thread!!!

Delly x

[nicho1120]

how are you getting on with Black Horse just sent a complaint letter and wondered what had happened to you.

[gemspan]

Hi there

I got a letter from BH advising me that they wouldnt cancel the PPI as it was not missold. Still havent received my statements etc., I telephoned them and spoke to the guy that sent the letter and advised him of the circumstances. I have to send copies of the letters I have written to him but have been really really busy with a new job etc., so havent got round to it yet. I will be sending them this weekend and will keep you posted.

Good luck with your complaint.

Kind regards
Gemspan

[reidnet]

Will be interested to see what they do next...

[gemspan]

HI Ian

I have been meaning to pm you!!!! My you are turning into a local celebrity arent you? You'll have people coming up asking for your autograph next!!!!! Seriously though. It takes guts to appear on tv. I used to work with the media and I know how things are twisted etc., but you did a very good job indeed on getting your case across on Tonight. Good for you.

I have been really really busy and have started my claim with BOS in the courts and have loads more to do. Hopefully I will get this sorted with Black Horse. The guy backed down when I told him how the loan was sold to me.

I;ll keep you updated on progress.

Kind regards
Annie

[reidnet]

Hi Annie,
I thought you may have won the lottery and done a runner..lol Good to see you back and ready to fight again. I dont think I am One of Lloyds favourite people right now.lol and Hopefully today will be granted Decree over my second charges claim against Lloyds.. They failed to submit defence .. Hopefully the sheriff will go with my recommendation..lol

Ian

[nicho1120]

just wondered how you had got on with Black Horse. Did you recieve anything from the Chief Executive ???

[gemspan]

Right then. Here's the story.

Havent heard anything back from HO but the local branch manager called today and said he was stopping all interest on my account. He then called back and said he was prepared to give me a settlement figure on my current account which is £15,000 (less than what it should be if PPI included!) and re-instate another loan for that amount over the same period. Now, I think this is a result because it is less than what I was paying. However, can I still claim for the PPI on the other loan if I take this loan out?

Answers on a postcard please!!!!!!

Kind regards
Annie

PS: I mentioned the magic words FSA and Fraud Act, misrepresentation etc., and then got this second phone call.

	Record your calls Follow this link to read the review of the Truecall telephone recorder and call manager. This is the Rolls Royce of call recorders. It's a bit pricey but if you buy it with our special offer you will get it at cost: about 20% discount. How much do we make on the deal? - Nothing at all. You can also buy cheaper devices from Maplins. Truecall is the best - but the important thing is to record your calls.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[stan5131]

Annie, I am following this with interest as I am just about to take action for a friend who paid £9,000 for ppi on a £25,000 secured loan. With interest and ppi it came to £44,000 and she paid it off when she sold the house 2 years later. Settlement figure was £39,000! Best bit is not only did she not know she had ppi, but she was self employed.

I just read one of reidnets posts which says Black Horse have something written into the agreements which cover their legal fees. This is worrying because even if you issue a MCOL, you can be responsible for their costs. I am thinking of writing to CEO and then taking up with FO. Do you know if anyone has successfully won in court against them without being awarded their fees?

Stan

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[gemspan]

Hello Stan

Well, FWIW, my understanding of agreements is that both parties have to agree and the agreement has to be lawful. I could threaten you to give me £500 and you could agree but that doesn't mean I have a lawful, standing agreement does it? Accordingly, in relation to BH. They can put what they like in their agreements but, if the agreement has been mis-sold and is unlawful, their inserts mean diddly-squat!!!! I also think that perhaps Ian was meaning that they could make you liable for their charges if you defaulted on the Agreement. They can't make you liable for their charges per se!!! You would only be liable for their costs if you lost the court case. If you won the court case then they would probably be liable for your charges. It would be a bit like me saying to you "Take this loan and have the insurance" You then find out the insurance is null and void for whatever reason and it has been mis-sold to you. Therefore that makes the agreement unlawful and, as such, if the company wanted to defend the action then they would have to pay their own costs. If it is was found to be the case that the insurance was legitimate and could have covered illness, redundancy etc., then you would have to pay the costs.

Regarding your friend. I would have a good look at the agreement and see what it says. If the insurance covers redundancy then it is inoperative and BH would have had that information when she took out the loan and therefore should not have sold her insurance to cover redundancy. However, it may just cover accident and sickness, in which case it is relevant.

BH sell their PPI as a different loan and therefore when you are quoted an APR that is not for the entire loan per se. It is for the loan AND for the PPI. That is where they are doing things wrong - IMO!!!! And that is where the Director General's directive (on this site somewhere!) comes into force. You could also get them under the Fraud Act if they told you the APR was, say, 10% but in fact it is not 10% because you are getting charges 10% additionally for the PPI.

I dont know of anybody who has gone to court with BH but IMO it wouldnt get that far and it is best to take it all the way. Send a letter to the CEO and he will pass it to his complaints analysts. You will get a SOD OFF letter from them and then write back to them saying you are taking it further ie court action AND THEN DO THAT!!!!!! When it reaches court you will probably find that they will settle but have a good look at the PPI and loan contract first to see where you stand.

Hope this helps
Annie

	What are your rights at work Follow this link to read the review of the Guide to your Rights at work, published by Lawpack

[stan5131]

Cheers Annie. Going to draft letter tonight. Can you point me to Director General's directive on this site. Had a look but cant find it.

Also, BH have not responded to Subject Access Request request and chase up letter which was first sent 53 days ago.

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[reidnet]

Hi Stan,
Just to clear up about Costs, In some secured agreements they may have a clause in regarding Cost, Have a good look through to see if there is anything in the Terms and Conditions. Better being safe than sorry so to speak.

Good Luck

Ian

[stan5131]

Ian, did Subject Access Request 53 days ago to which they have not replied nor to chase up letter, so cant look at Terms and Conditions. This was paid off last year and very little documentation to hand without Subject Access Request.

Stan

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.