Hhmmmm.....Very Interesting

[skbuncks]

As the issues surrounding the miss-selling for the garduate loans are different from for the select loan im keeping them separate.

Prelim for Graduate loans sent recorded delivery on monday for grand total of £2595.75. I am a bit worried though since I live in sheffield and the letter was posted by my GF at a post office in parkgate, rotherham on monday morning. Several hours later said post office, along with most of yorkshire, was several feet underwater and tracking system is showing item as yet undelivered. Fingers crossed my prelim is not another victim of the great yorkshire flood.

skb

[skbuncks]

Copy of prelim

Date: 16th June 2007.

Dear Sir/Madam.

Re: Complaint and request for return of Payment Protection Insurance premium

Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx
Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx
Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx


I am writing to request the repayment of monies paid by myself to LloydsTSB for PPI policies on a number of loans which were mis-sold (loan account numbers as above detailed above).

At the time of undertaking the credit agreements, the agent acting on your behalf misled me into procuring Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) as part of the overall credit bargain.

The Insurance Policies sold to myself were not defined nor explained and were not "optional" as laid out in the said agreements, as I was informed that the Insurance was part and parcel of having a loan and that without it the loan would not be approved.

Your agents misrepresented the fact that the insurance was compulsory and due to inexperience in financial matters at the time this was taken at face value.; I felt that there was no choice but to agree to the credit bargain.

I was employed on a temporary basis at the time of taking out each of the loans and therefore not eligible for any payments from the PPI in the event of cessation of employment or illness. My situation was known to the person who sold me the loans, however he/she did not point out that I would never be able to benefit from the insurance sold as my employment circumstances immediately excluded me from cover.

I consider that your representations that the PPI plan was required, reasonable and suitable to my needs were deceptive, and as such I was deceived into agreeing to pay the insurance.

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves with reasonable care and skill and in a manner which complies with UK law.

Full details of my reasoning behind why I believe the PPI policies were mis-sold are attached to this letter.

You will be aware of the recent government intervention on this matter informing the FSA and OFT to make significant changes to the manner in which personal payment protection is sold. In particular your attention is drawn to FSA principles for business:

Principle 1: Integrity: A firm must conduct its business with integrity.

Principle 2: Skill, care and diligence: A firm must conduct its business with due skill, care and diligence.

Principle 3: Management and control: A firm must take reasonable care to organise and control its affairs responsibly and effectively, with adequate risk management systems.

Principle 5: Market conduct: A firm must observe proper standards of market conduct.

Principle 6: Customers' interests: A firm must pay due regard to the interests of its customers and treat them fairly.

Principle 7: Communications with clients: A firm must pay due regard to the information needs of its clients, and communicate information to them in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading.

Principle 9: Customers: relationships of trust: A firm must take reasonable care to ensure the suitability of its advice and discretionary decisions for any customer who is entitled to rely upon its judgment.

In view of the way I was mis-sold this very expensive insurance, I am hereby giving you 14 days notice to reply positively or refund the whole of each premium paid, including interest, forthwith.

What I require


Partial rebates were received upon early repayment of the loans. I now require full repayment of the outstanding paid premiums as detailed below:

Graduate Loan Account Number 30975100738128: £429.11
Graduate Loan Account Number 100009943673: £344.91
Graduate Loan Account Number 100016734138: £1821.73
Total: £2595.75

In order to calculate the amount of PPI paid on each loan and the amount received in any rebate I made an Subject Access Request request on 19th November 2006 for the relevant information. In direct breach of Data Protection Act principles and despite several follow up letters it was not until the 12th June 2007 that all information had been received. A full breakdown of each loan is attached together with my methodology of calculating the PPI which is reclaimed here. If you wish to dispute the amounts then you must do so by supplying evidence to the contrary.

My targets to resolve this matter


I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets or proceed to court.

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting unconditionally my request for £2595.75 repayment and letting me know a date by which I will receive this.

For the avoidance of doubt if in 14 days you have not replied positively or supplied a full refund, I will issue a Letter Before Action before commencing a claim against you with the county courts. Additionally I will immediately lodge a complaint against you with the Financial Services Authority.

After that there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the deadline.

I trust that will not be necessary and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely




Gary

[skbuncks]

Attached reasonings

My Particular Circumstances Regarding Employment.


I was initially employed by Securicor on a temporary contract from September 1999. This contract was renewed in or around April of 2000 until June 2000 whereupon it came to an unexpected end, I was consequently unemployed from June 2000. At this point I made a claim on the Insurance Policy which was turned down on the basis that my type of employment was not covered.

I was then unemployed up until 18th September of 2000 whereupon I again commenced work on a temporary contract for SRG LabStaff with a maximum term of six months . I commenced a second such contract in April of 2001, a third September 2001 and again in April 2002, this final contract was brought to an end early after 3 months. On the 1st July 2002 I commenced full time permanent employment.
It was totally unconscionable that any temporary contract I was employed upon would be renewed at the end of its term.
My employment circumstances were made known to your branch agent at the time of each application yet despite your duty of care to act responsibly these ineffective and unsuitable policies were still sold to me.

My Reasoning behind why I believe the PPI was mis-sold.

I now realize following the recent OFT and FSA investigations, that you mis-sold me these insurance policies, which I did not want and did not need. I believe I signed up for the insurance under economic duress and that your actions were unconscionable.

I contend that:

1. Under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I was misled and false information was given during the interview process on the day the agreement was made:

“If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or (c) has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor”.

2. The Insurances sold to myself were not defined nor explained and were not "optional" as laid out in the said agreements, indeed I was informed that the Insurance was part and parcel of having a loan. Your in branch agents misrepresented the fact that the insurance was compulsory and due to my inexperience in financial matters at the time this was taken at face value. I believed I had no choice but to agree to the PPI in order to obtain a loan.

3. The PPI section of the contract was filled in prior to my receiving and signing the contract(s) and was therefore not ‘optional’.

4. As the Insurance was in fact a charge for credit on the Conditional Sale Agreement, it could not also be part of the credit on the additional insurances agreement as under section 9 (4) CCA credit charges cannot be treated as credit even where time is given for their payments.

5. If the Insurance was not a charge for credit in respect of the Conditional Sale Agreement, as it was compulsory, it was a charge for credit on the additional insurances and under section 9 (4) CCA credit charges cannot be treated as credit

6. For the reasons stated in either (4) or (5) above, the agreement for additional insurances failed to state the correct amount of credit and did not comply with paragraph 2, schedule 6, which requires that regulated agreements contain as a prescribed term stating the correct amount of credit.

7. The agreement for additional insurances was therefore improperly executed under section 61 (1)(a) of the CCA.


8. The Insurance was mis-sold, as it was not appropriate to my employment circumstances i.e. I was employed on a temporary contract basis which was not covered by the insurance policy. The Lloyds TSB Loan Protection Policy Document has this to say on exclusions to the Policy:

You will not be covered for any period of unemployment which:
i. Immediately follows a period of casual or temporary work, or
ii. Is normal in your line of work, or
iii. Results from the end of a fixed term contract, except where you have:
a. Worked continuously for the same employer for at least 24 months, or
b. Been on a contract for at least 12 months and had that contract renewed at least once.

In response to this I was employed on temporary contracts, had not been with the same employer for 24 months or more and had not been on a contract for at least 12 months.
I was therefore never able to benefit from the insurance sold as my employment circumstances immediately excluded me from cover.

9. I contend that your agent was fully aware of my circumstances and fraudulently / mistakenly passed incorrect details to the insurer to obtain these same Insurances from the insurer. The believe this grossly contravenes ordinary principles of fair dealing.

10. Under the misrepresentation Act 1967 Section 2(1) damages to the sum of the monies paid are hereby claimed.

I was informed on taking out Graduate loans 2 and 3, which were to refinance the proceeding loans, had to be taken on the same terms and conditions as the first.

I also attached to this 18 pages of spreadsheets detailing the schedule of PPI, Loan payments and interest on a day to day basis

skb

[reidnet]

Nice letter, Obviously you have done a lot of reading and research too.. Well done.. and Good Luck..

Ian

[SteveH2508]

Quick point on my way out to work -

A graduate loan is a debtor-creditor agreement not a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement so S75 does not apply. I think you will need to remove that section. (IMHO)

[skbuncks]

Originally Posted by SteveH2508

Quick point on my way out to work -

A graduate loan is a debtor-creditor agreement not a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement so S75 does not apply. I think you will need to remove that section. (IMHO)

Not sure I agree totally with you on that one, but then I do find the act to be very confusing. Too late anyway as letter was delivered today. Still need to clear this up though before LBA stage I think.

From what i can gather a graduate loan is a multiple agreement as different aspects of the loan fall within different sections of the Act. Namely the cash loan, PPI loan and loan to pay off existing debt. I have defined each aspect of the loan as follows, are may or may not be right so feel free to shoot me down in flames.

Cash loan:
Unrestricted-use credit under section 11(2)
Debtor-creditor agreement under section 13(c)

PPI Loan:
Restricted-use credit under section 11(1)(b). (This assumes that the supplier of the insurance is a separate body to the supplier of credit, which I believe they are).
Debtor-creditor-supplier agreement under section 12(b).
Loan to pay off existing debts:
Restricted-use credit under section 11(1)(c)
Debtor-creditor agreement under section 13(b)

So the cash loan and any loan to pay off existing debts is a debtor-creditor agreement. However the PPI loan is a Debtor-creditor-supplier agreement.

Section 11(b) to finance a transaction between the debtor and a person (the “supplier”) other than the creditor, or

Section 12(b) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(b) and is made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements, or in contemplation of future arrangements, between himself and the supplier, or

the pre-existing arrangements are by virtue of Section 187(1) and 187(5).

This is my take on it anyway and allows use of section 75.

Something which has always confused me is where does it actually say in the CCA that you cannot miss-sell PPI? I've also looked to see what other sections of the act deal with misrepresentation or miss-selling but cant seem to find any - do they exist?

skb

[skbuncks]

For reference the relevant sections of CCA

75 Liability of creditor for breaches by supplier

(1) If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or (c) has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor.

11 Restricted-use credit and unrestricted-use credit

(1) A restricted-use credit agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement—
(a) to finance a transaction between the debtor and the creditor, whether forming part of that agreement or not, or
(b) to finance a transaction between the debtor and a person (the “supplier”) other than the creditor, or
(c) to refinance any existing indebtedness of the debtor’s, whether to the creditor or another person,

and “restricted-use credit” shall be construed accordingly.

(2) An unrestricted-use credit agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement not falling within subsection (1), and “unrestricted-use credit” shall be construed accordingly.
(3) An agreement does not fall within subsection (1) if the credit is in fact provided in such a way as to leave the debtor free to use it as he chooses, even though certain uses would contravene that or any other agreement.
(4) An agreement may fall within subsection (1)(b) although the identity of the supplier is unknown at the time the agreement is made.

12 Debtor-creditor-supplier agreements

A debtor-creditor-supplier agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement being—

(a) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(a), or
(b) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(b) and is made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements, or in contemplation of future arrangements, between himself and the supplier, or
(c) an unrestricted-use credit agreement which is made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements between himself and a person (the “supplier”) other than the debtor in the knowledge that the credit is to be used to finance a transaction between the debtor and the supplier.

13 Debtor-creditor agreements

A debtor-creditor agreement is a regulated consumer credit agreement being—

(a) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(b) but is not made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements, or in contemplation of future arrangements, between himself and the supplier, or
(b) a restricted-use credit agreement which falls within section 11(1)(c), or
(c) an unrestricted-use credit agreement which is not made by the creditor under pre-existing arrangements between himself and a person (the “supplier”) other than the debtor in the knowledge that the credit is to be used to finance a transaction between the debtor and the supplier.

187 Arrangements between creditor and supplier

(1) A consumer credit agreement shall be treated as entered into under pre-existing arrangements between a creditor and a supplier if it is entered into in accordance with, or in furtherance of, arrangements previously made between persons mentioned in subsection (4)(a), (b) or (c).
(2) A consumer credit agreement shall be treated as entered into in contemplation of future arrangements between a creditor and a supplier if it is entered into in the expectation that arrangements will subsequently be made between persons mentioned in subsection (4)(a), (b) or (c) for the supply of cash, goods and services (or any of them) to be financed by the consumer credit agreement.
(3) Arrangements shall be disregarded for the purposes of subsection (1) or (2) if—
(a) they are arrangements for the making, in specified circumstances, of payments to the supplier by the creditor, and
(b) the creditor holds himself out as willing to make, in such circumstances, payments of the kind to suppliers generally.
(3A) Arrangements shall also be disregarded for the purposes of subsections (1) and (2) if they are arrangements for the electronic transfer of funds from a current account at a bank within the meaning of the Bankers’ Books Evidence Act 1879.
(4) The persons referred to in subsections (1) and (2) are—
(a) the creditor and the supplier;
(b) one of them and an associate of the other’s;
(c) an associate of one and an associate of the other’s.
(5) Where the creditor is an associate of the supplier’s, the consumer credit agreement shall be treated, unless the contrary is proved, as entered into under pre-existing arrangements between the creditor and the supplier.

[skbuncks]

Received a letter y/day from lloyds, they have received my complaint and are very sorry that I am unhappy . They are looking into the issues I have raised and will get back to me as soon as possible. Better be quick cos my fingers are itching to send off LBA

skb

[skbuncks]

Received another letter from LloydsTSB insurance over the weekend. They need another 4 weeks to look into the issues raised in my complaint. As im skint and cant afford to take them to court just yet I shall be giving them their four weeks

skb

[kennythecelt]

Good luck. You have put a lot of effort into this and my fingers are crossed for you!! Keep going, watching with interest!

[skbuncks]

Thankyou for your support Kenny.
Time for a joyous little update.
Recieved a letter about a week ago from complaints dept stating that as 8 weeks had passed since my initial complaint i was now elligible to take the issue to the FOS. In the meantime they would continue to look into the issues raised but needed more time owing age of some of the loans.

I had just started preparing my LBA and getting things together for filing at the county court earlier this week when I received a msg on my answer phone (I was in a meeting at work at the time) asking me to call them back to discuss a settlement offer. I dutifully called them back and spoke to a nice man, whom I shall refer to as Mr C to spare him his blushes, who basically said that without any admission of wrong doing etc on their part they were willing to make me an offer. There was however a discrepancy between my calculations and theirs to the effect that the offer was £6 more than what I asked for. I of course have accepted and eagerly await their formal written offer which Mr C has sent to me first class. It should hopefully be on my doormat when I get home from work today.
I cheekily asked him what he thought of the spreadsheets I had submitted and he said he had passed them onto their account dept who had been very impressed with them.
To tell the truth to be within £6 of their calculated amount when spread over 3 loans and several yeaers, with missed payments, additional payments, early settlements, early settlement fees, partial rebates due to early settlement and erroneous additional payments on already settled loans is nothing short of amazing, especially considering I failed A level maths.

So once I have signed and returned their offer of settlement the money should be in my account within between 5 and 21 working days. Total claimed comes to £2601 Woohooooooooo.

skb

[tonycee]

Originally Posted by skbuncks

To tell the truth to be within £6 of their calculated amount when spread over 3 loans and several yeaers, with missed payments, additional payments, early settlements, early settlement fees, partial rebates due to early settlement and erroneous additional payments on already settled loans is nothing short of amazing, especially considering I failed A level maths.

You will now be inundated for requests to "look over" peoples claims.

Me First. me me me.

Seriously, fantastic result. Well done, im really pleased for you, and theres hope for the rest of us..

[gemini65]

congratulations and well done to you

reading your thread has just give me the encouragement i needed to continue with my fight against this awful ppi.

happy spending!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

luv gemini xxx