Welcome Finance - missold PPI and part of loan

[leedspete]

Dipply i do have my own thread m8 but no one looking @ it lol

[Dipply75]

sorry leedspete! Can you copy and paste the link here so we can have a look?

[Dipply75]

I agree citizenB, there is either way too much info in one place, or too many big words - oooh, catty - miiaaoowww!

[leedspete]

me v welcome

[citizenB]

Originally Posted by Dipply75

I agree citizenB, there is either way too much info in one place, or too many big words - oooh, catty - miiaaoowww!

I reckon they might struggle on both counts

[Dipply75]

Well well, give them enough rope and hey presto.

After warning them twice now to make all contact in writing or else, the Customer Relations Centre sent a letter asking my OH to give his authority for me to discuss his account, as they have checked with the branch and they realise he doesn;t want to be contacted a work, they will speak with me. ** sigh**. Like you said citizenb, too many big words lol.

Less than a week later a 'final response' arrives saying they have tried to address the issues by letter but have had no response (no letter, unless they mean lets TALK about it and geez! one week? give us a chance!)

Oh yeah, and just like the last one, I have investigated all the outstanding issues.......I hope you are happy with the outcome of this (tell me and we'll see!) and OMG - an apology for the customer service at the branch, this has been addressed apparently.

Surely this is not the outcome , the branch was naughty and we have told them off. Sorry n that.

So! Letter being sent Monday:

Thank you for the apology regarding the customer service at your ***** branch. Further to your undated letter requesting third party authority to discuss account and your subsequent letter dated 23 July 2008, I have enclosed copies of all my correspondence sent to your ********branch as it appears they have not passed on the full details of my complaint to your department.

I would ask that you read both letters so you have full details of all the complaints. To clarify matters, please note:

OH and I have requested twice now that all communication is in writing, yet your undated letter asks for OH authority to discuss his account as you are unable to speak with myself without this. Your letter also confirms that, despite the serious complaint lodged about Welcome’s contact to OH workplace, you have enquired about attempting contact with him there again

Again, if there are any queries or you need any further information to help with your investigation please put this in writing and you will receive a prompt response. As this is now the third time verbal contact has been attempted against our wishes, we now intend to make complaints to all the regulatory bodies, as previously warned.

Regarding your letter dated 23 July 2008, I would also ask for clarification. You state you have tried to contact OH to address his concerns by letter, yet no correspondence other than the 2 letters stated above have been received from you. I can only assume your actual response to our complaints is ‘lost’ in the post as I do not think for a second that your only reply to the number of queries and seriousness of the complaints made would be your ‘Final Response’ letter. We would therefore be grateful if you could forward another copy of your letter urgently, alternatively you could e-mail this and anything you need to discuss to:

(My e-mail)


I would ask that you also clarify again what stage we are at in your complaints process as your letter of 23 July 2008 is the second final response received. I note that your ‘final response’ letter was sent only one week after your request to discuss the complaint verbally, hardly leaving time for any response from ourselves. As we are unable to confirm that we are satisfied with the outcome of your investigations as we do not know these outcomes yet, or had an opportunity to respond to them being given only one week to do so, I am confused as to why your letter is titled ‘final response’.

In summary:
Please note that all communication must now be in writing.
Please forward another copy of your letter addressing our concerns to the e-mail address listed above or again by post.
Please ensure that there are answers to the questions listed on our complaint, including what was discussed during the phone call to OH workplace.

Please feel free to make further contact to the e-mail address above, I look forward to your earliest response

But wait, there's more......

[Dipply75]

More.....

When I wrote back to tell them they had still not complied with the CCA request a letter appeared saying thank you for your Subject Access Request, here are your documents. Our Subject Access Request's not sent yet!

What they sent was a pile of stuff printed off from their system that is completely forged. A pile of stuff that all have OH's signature on them, breakdowns of PPI, agreeing to figures, DD mandate etc. Every signature is EXACTLY the same as the one on the agreement - I mean exactly. OH (just like me and many others) signed ONLY the agreement that day - ONLY.

Some of them show his signature, but are dated before he even applied for the loan!!

tut tut

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[alanalana]

Hello diply,

this is from the templates library on draft order for directions and my be of help if you have no original documentation from Welcome.

c) copies of Default Notices (if any) issued pursuant to s87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever you are)

d) a copy of any Notice of Assignment to the [Claimant] [Defendant] (whichever is the loan company) relating to the [Claimant’s] [Defendant’s] (whichever you are) account

e) if copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to:

(i) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents
(ii) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s)
(iii) copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with
(iv) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards

from this link and useful if you have to go to Court

Draft order for directions - including directions for disclosure

Hope this helps
aa

	Materials library Follow this link to our library where you can use our templates and other references free of charge. You must be registered to use them - but registration is free.

[citizenB]

Originally Posted by Dipply75

More.....

When I wrote back to tell them they had still not complied with the CCA request a letter appeared saying thank you for your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), here are your documents. Our Subject Access Request's not sent yet!

What they sent was a pile of stuff printed off from their system that is completely forged. A pile of stuff that all have OH's signature on them, breakdowns of PPI, agreeing to figures, DD mandate etc. Every signature is EXACTLY the same as the one on the agreement - I mean exactly. OH (just like me and many others) signed ONLY the agreement that day - ONLY.

Some of them show his signature, but are dated before he even applied for the loan!!

tut tut

hehehe, I like that one.

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[alanalana]

Hello diply,

ref my post 68 on your thread. It is para e onwards that is crucial to any claim and there must be production of the original in Court or the full authenticity of the document they produce which must be notified before the hearing. With all of the detail required by the Civil Evidence Act 1995.

Home - Statute Law Database

If you go to this link.

in title type in Civil Evidence Act and in the year box type in 1995 and you should end up with the full legal act to look at.

aa

[Dipply75]

Brilliant thank you. Unless someone sat with a pencil tracing in all the signatures onto them they'll have a job

Will be giving all that a good going through. They really are doing all the work for me, things are never this easy for me, getting worried lol

Actually, I think I will scan them in to ask if anyone recognises the forms.

[alanalana]

Hello diply,

Don't get worried get positive.

It is easy to get worried but just look at all the fines by FSA for mis-selling.

If the banks etc cannot produce the legally required documents then too bad I am sure the FOS would love to see what they have sent you.

The thing is it is your choice for FOS or Court but whatever use the CEA 1995 to your advantage with reference to documentation it has to be legal to be accepted in Court.

aa

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

[Dipply75]

ooh, another thought (not even opened the wine yet lol)

On the PPI breakdown it does show an amount for IPT - that Insurance Premium Tax. Its THAT I want to follow for a while. I want to see money go to an actual insurer for my policy so the tax man can then get his bit.....or will Welcome pay him direct? Or will I just follow it down the rabbit hole?

[alanalana]

Hello diply,

ooh, another thought (not even opened the wine yet lol)

On the PPI breakdown it does show an amount for IPT - that Insurance Premium Tax. Its THAT I want to follow for a while. I want to see money go to an actual insurer for my policy so the tax man can then get his bit.....or will Welcome pay him direct? Or will I just follow it down the rabbit hole?

Good question Dipply

You will need another welcome expert for this one on the IPT. Mine is straight PPI and interest! Plus of course 8% with a favourable outcome from FOS and compensation for delays etc but I will leave that to the FOS

aa

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Dipply75]

Hi all. Firstly and apology as there has been loads happening but I have not been updating my thread. Sorry! Been writing endless letters lol.

Right quick update then onto the main issue which I need help/opinions/expert guidance on....

Sent the letter asking for their actual response...nothing. Their collections branch calls weeks later chasing payment (entire phone call recorded BTW ) Another letter sent informing them that they have had ample time and since we received 2 final response letters it was now being passed to the FOS etc.

A week or so later there is a chap at the door one evening and there is someone from Welcome, claiming initially to know nothing about a dispute. We refuse to discuss it, advising the complaint is now with the FOS but will give him a copy to take away. While I go indoors to print this off the sneaky get starts talking to the OH, saying he noticed a complaint in the system, can we give him more detail......fishing! Then, out of the blue, says he has a special offer and would write off half the debt right away! HHmmmmm. He is chased away and a copy of the complaint posted to him as he asked anyway.

Now, in the meantime there has been digging about this Insurance Premium Tax (IPT) and there are serious questions that Welcome need to answer:

From what I understand, IPT is payable on any taxable insurance premium. The standard tax is 5%, which should apply to these PPI policies. One of the main questions is...what counts as taxable premium?

The HMRC states: “Premium” means all payments receivable under the contract of insurance by an insurer. (For this purpose payments under the contract of insurance received on an insurer’s behalf by third parties are treated as received by the insurer.) In particular, this includes any payments in connection with:

• the risk insured;
• cost of administration (that is, administrative costs which are charged to the policyholder);
• commission (paid to or retained by brokers or other intermediaries);
• tax (premiums are tax inclusive for IPT purposes);
• interest (where credit arrangements allow for payment in instalments, whether or not the payment for this facility is called interest).

(However, credit charges, whether or not the payment for this facility is called interest, are not treated as part of the premium where the charge is made under a separate contract, for example, a contract regulated by the Consumer Credit Act.)

OK - so the IPT is clearly 5% of the premium you pay. But should it also be 5% of the interest you are charged on that premium? It does mention the charges being on a separate contract, say a CCA - but note the exclusion words, separate contract.

This is where I need help! My OH's agreement has the premium listed in with the other borrowing, all the interest payable is lumped together, the monthly payments are lumped together. There is nothing listed seperately for the PPI premium, and certainly no separate contract in any shape or form.

Now bear with me!!! Even if the interest charges are not taxable - the premium is. They sent us their breakdown of prices for the loan and here is what it says:

PPI Price inc IPT - £1094.67
Interest - £ 710.37
Total Payable - £1805.04
IPT incurred - £43.81

My maths is not fab but I know that £43.81 is not 5% of £1094. Are there other deductions, taxes, vat or someothing I am unaware of?

Um, any comments?

	Record your calls Follow this link to read the review of the Truecall telephone recorder and call manager. This is the Rolls Royce of call recorders. It's a bit pricey but if you buy it with our special offer you will get it at cost: about 20% discount. How much do we make on the deal? - Nothing at all. You can also buy cheaper devices from Maplins. Truecall is the best - but the important thing is to record your calls.

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[citizenB]

Originally Posted by Dipply75

Um, any comments?

Yes, got any aspirin

I think alanalana might be the one to ask.

[Dipply75]

pmsl, I know.

Its only because I have being going over and over that I know what I mean lol

The bedtime reading which got me thinking about how Welcomes premium is in no way a separate contract, in any sense. The figures are all quoted together, no separate amount stated for the interest, nothing:

Homeserve v HMRC | OUT-LAW.COM

Or just tell me to behave and go to bed lol!

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[alanalana]

hello dipply,

Hi all. Firstly and apology as there has been loads happening but I have not been updating my thread. Sorry! Been writing endless letters lol.

Right quick update then onto the main issue which I need help/opinions/expert guidance on....

Sent the letter asking for their actual response...nothing. Their collections branch calls weeks later chasing payment (entire phone call recorded BTW ) Another letter sent informing them that they have had ample time and since we received 2 final response letters it was now being passed to the FOS etc.

A week or so later there is a chap at the door one evening and there is someone from Welcome, claiming initially to know nothing about a dispute. We refuse to discuss it, advising the complaint is now with the FOS but will give him a copy to take away. While I go indoors to print this off the sneaky get starts talking to the OH, saying he noticed a complaint in the system, can we give him more detail......fishing! Then, out of the blue, says he has a special offer and would write off half the debt right away! HHmmmmm. He is chased away and a copy of the complaint posted to him as he asked anyway.

Now, in the meantime there has been digging about this Insurance Premium Tax (IPT) and there are serious questions that Welcome need to answer:

From what I understand, IPT is payable on any taxable insurance premium. The standard tax is 5%, which should apply to these PPI policies. One of the main questions is...what counts as taxable premium?

The HMRC states: “Premium” means all payments receivable under the contract of insurance by an insurer. (For this purpose payments under the contract of insurance received on an insurer’s behalf by third parties are treated as received by the insurer.) In particular, this includes any payments in connection with:

• the risk insured;
• cost of administration (that is, administrative costs which are charged to the policyholder);
• commission (paid to or retained by brokers or other intermediaries);
• tax (premiums are tax inclusive for IPT purposes);
• interest (where credit arrangements allow for payment in instalments, whether or not the payment for this facility is called interest).

(However, credit charges, whether or not the payment for this facility is called interest, are not treated as part of the premium where the charge is made under a separate contract, for example, a contract regulated by the Consumer Credit Act.)

OK - so the IPT is clearly 5% of the premium you pay. But should it also be 5% of the interest you are charged on that premium? It does mention the charges being on a separate contract, say a CCA - but note the exclusion words, separate contract.

This is where I need help! My OH's agreement has the premium listed in with the other borrowing, all the interest payable is lumped together, the monthly payments are lumped together. There is nothing listed seperately for the PPI premium, and certainly no separate contract in any shape or form.

Now bear with me!!! Even if the interest charges are not taxable - the premium is. They sent us their breakdown of prices for the loan and here is what it says:

PPI Price inc IPT - £1094.67
Interest - £ 710.37
Total Payable - £1805.04
IPT incurred - £43.81

My maths is not fab but I know that £43.81 is not 5% of £1094. Are there other deductions, taxes, vat or someothing I am unaware of?

Um, any comments?

Your quoted figures have got me stumped.

I am no authority on taxation but from my own experiences I can only point you to my own case from the last few weeks on Tax issues.

RBS make me an offer goodwill gesture and all that I say No and ask for 8% Statutory on top.
RBS say bog off go to the FOS
AA goes to the FOS
FOS say we have a revised offer from RBS 8% Statutory interest added but Less 20% tax..

Not sure why this happens though but the FOS seem to agree with it.

Sorry could not be of more help if I stumble on any more info I will surely post and if I get a bit of time I will google.

aa

	Record your calls Follow this link to read the review of the Truecall telephone recorder and call manager. This is the Rolls Royce of call recorders. It's a bit pricey but if you buy it with our special offer you will get it at cost: about 20% discount. How much do we make on the deal? - Nothing at all. You can also buy cheaper devices from Maplins. Truecall is the best - but the important thing is to record your calls.

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[citizenB]

I found some paracetamol

[Dipply75]

pmsl, you can have some of my wine citizenb, just for reading my possibly insane rantings. I keep doubting that a company that size would not have something like this airtight - but they are that arrogant.

Simply - on an insurance premium the insurer/broker pays 5% tax. Our premium was £1094 and they only listed £43.81 tax. Just doesn't add up! Think I'll pass it all to HMRC and see........hehe

Alanalana, thanks....and WTF on the 20% tax? Will have to watch out for that one!